tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post3707301449977485165..comments2024-02-26T02:02:51.364-05:00Comments on Queers United: Open Forum: Is Thomas Beatie a Hermaphrodite by Choice?Queers Unitedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-49146111999311700202008-12-29T19:07:00.000-05:002008-12-29T19:07:00.000-05:00I take something back from this - I do not know wh...I take something back from this - I do not know whether the guy's involvement with the media was because he was used, or whether it was an opportunity for income in a context where trans people are often discriminated against in employment etc. I do take exception to the media sticking his body in people's faces, and I am sure he would rather not have been the focus of this attention.<BR/><BR/>I also want to add that Nicky is not representative of intersex people, many of us support trans people in making the choices in their lives they need to. If he is who I think he is, his transphobia is only matched by his homophobia, and results from his own unresolved gender and sexuality issues. Unfortunately, many intersex people have been left with a legacy of harm as a result of their treatment by the medical profession, the education system, parents, family and peers.<BR/><BR/>As a transman Thomas is a man, but not like most other men. I think it a shame that his androgynous features should be focused on in the context of hermaphroditism, when he clearly sees himself as a man. I do get angry that for some reason trans and intersex people's genitals seem to be up for public discussion in a way that other people's genitals are not. Our genitals are our business and should not be exploited for public curiosity.<BR/><BR/>We are more than our genitals, and a penis does not make a man a man, nor does a vagina make a woman a woman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-15970065528396955122008-12-29T12:03:00.000-05:002008-12-29T12:03:00.000-05:00I dunno. The first baby, I thought good on you. ...I dunno. The first baby, I thought good on you. The second, I thought, this guy's taking the piss. I don't have any objection to him doing what he wants with his body - but I do take exception to his sticking his body in people's faces through the media. He's not a hermaphrodite, he's not a woman, he's not a man. He's a transman having a baby. What is so difficult about that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-26652477971478695542008-12-28T22:28:00.000-05:002008-12-28T22:28:00.000-05:00I'm also intersexed and just stumbled on this disc...I'm also intersexed and just stumbled on this discussion today. I am appauled at Nicky's assault on Transsexuals and arrogance. <BR/><BR/>For point of anatomy anyone can be born with a penis and vagina. The clitoris and penis are actually the same organ. A penis is an overgrown clit, the scrotum is labia that have fused. <BR/>Intersexed people have all been abused in our society. But what Nicky did in this discussion was terrible. If any of you return to read this please know that Nicky does NOT represent all intersexed people. I belong to the largest organization of intersexed people in the world and our mission statement says we never reject anyone claiming to be intersexed and never require some kind of physical proof or claim to own a definition of what conditions do or don't constitute it. The organization is Organization Intersexe Internationale, or OII. <BR/><BR/>Jim CostichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-57675485538952185732008-12-28T22:17:00.000-05:002008-12-28T22:17:00.000-05:00Actually, Nick...you're wrong about Beatty being a...Actually, Nick...you're wrong about Beatty being a transsexual too. Beatty transits gender, not sex. If sex had been transited there would be no pregnancy!<BR/><BR/>JoanneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-41203614192365682992008-12-28T21:43:00.000-05:002008-12-28T21:43:00.000-05:00Nicky...Please stop giving intersex people a bad n...Nicky...Please stop giving intersex people a bad name. Perhaps you can get banned from here also.<BR/><BR/>To the original comment:<BR/>Essentially Thomas Beatie does have both a penis and a vagina, which by birth is impossible but through surgery can become a reality.<BR/><BR/>This statement is not true I was born with a penis testis vagina and uterus so please check your facts before you make untrue statements.<BR/><BR/>Thanks Prince....ss?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-79712903124914300842008-12-09T06:17:00.000-05:002008-12-09T06:17:00.000-05:00After reading the previous posts, I think everyone...After reading the previous posts, I think everyone should take a few courses in human physiology so they can grasp a better understanding of how the body functions and developes... then you wont have to speculate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-24699826007089832972008-11-26T14:11:00.000-05:002008-11-26T14:11:00.000-05:00What I see is a broken record and a transphobe. I...What I see is a broken record and a transphobe. I am very disappointed, but I will no longer engage in this convo because it is like talking to a wall.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-3209919903059252692008-11-26T14:08:00.000-05:002008-11-26T14:08:00.000-05:00It seems to me that trans people are getting a fre...It seems to me that trans people are getting a free pass in the LGBT community to claim intersex when they aren't intersex in the first place. It also seems that the LGBT community is letting the Trans community silence and erase the intersex community's experience by claiming their their experience is the same as their when in fact that the trans community is lying. I see it as the LGBT community is letting them get away with it and not doing an damn thing to put a stop to trans people claiming intersex when they don't know what it's like to be intersex or understand what it means to be intersex. What I see it as hypocrisy and a double standard here.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-19923972915389899832008-11-25T21:20:00.000-05:002008-11-25T21:20:00.000-05:00I have yet to see an example in all my readings of...I have yet to see an example in all my readings of trans and intersex websites and the comments on this site, any indications of trans on intersex bashing nor have I seen intersex on trans bashing except from you.<BR/><BR/>If I did see a trans person bashing an intersex person degrading their lives, referring to them as freaks or "it" I would delete that language, as that is anti-intersex, much like the language of some of your posts which i have deleted that are transphobic.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-48206144025532864192008-11-25T21:07:00.000-05:002008-11-25T21:07:00.000-05:00Then why do Trans get a free pass to bash, silence...Then why do Trans get a free pass to bash, silence and erase the intersex, but when I call them out on that, i get called bigot for calling them out and calling them out for misusing the intersex name.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that it's unfair and so wrong. So I wonder why is the LGBT community letting the Trans community get a free pass to bash, silence and erase the intersex community.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-17451156129413514992008-11-25T16:42:00.000-05:002008-11-25T16:42:00.000-05:00Well, I am calling out those in the Trans communit...Well, I am calling out those in the Trans community who are misusing and misappropriating the intersex community and calling them out. I think that their are trans within the trans community who are getting a free pass to erase and silence the experience and voices of the intersex community and no one is calling them out on that. It's a shame and it's not fair that trans get's a pass to erase and silence the intersex, but when we intersex speak out about it, we get shouted down for speaking up.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-32358559842839086172008-11-25T09:26:00.000-05:002008-11-25T09:26:00.000-05:00nicky: I'm not going to say that there are never t...nicky: I'm not going to say that there are never transpeople who claim to be intersexed, and I would call out any who did so incorrectly. I don't know what it is to live your life, and won't try to tell you. Stop telling me what mine is.<BR/><BR/>Stop telling me I don't know what it's like to have a secret. Yes, I've not had doctors hide my medical records. I had to hide a large part of who I was from my family, the people I respected, my friends, and the very people who should have been helping me. I am out, but only partially. If someone googles me, they'll find my blog comments, my livejournal, etc. All under the name I use across many communities and that is known by my work.<BR/><BR/>You are yelling at the top of your lungs about how we are erasing your voice, your experiences, when the majority of the transpeople I've talked to would never dream of calling themselves intersexed, and would most defiantly NOT do so because it's, "free from blame." I do not blame myself for being trans, I do not think it is shameful, and I won't let you or anyone else tell me it is, or even imply it. YOU and other people like you who attempt to say that the physical is the real are the reason that transpeople feel shamed, the reason I spent the nights crying into my pillow, the reason I walked through the first part of my life angry, alone, and full of hate for the entire world.<BR/><BR/>We are not you. That doesn't mean that we are invalid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-84488733366759482652008-11-24T22:54:00.000-05:002008-11-24T22:54:00.000-05:00Well Diane, I'm calling out those, especially thos...Well Diane, I'm calling out those, especially those in the transgender community who are misusing, misappropriating and misidentifying as an intersex when they aren't even intersex in the first place. I am even calling out those who think they can speak for or speak on behalf of the intersex community, when they don't even have the right to unless they are born intersex.<BR/><BR/>The problem here is that you have trans people labeling themselves as intersex when they aren't intersex and don't fully know what it's like to be intersex and what it means to be born intersex. The freely use that label like it's something they can do without ill regard to the real intersex they might hurt or damage. It's like they just use the label freely and don't understand that they might and may hurt the real intersex out their.<BR/><BR/>What's not fair is when people are not calling them out for misusing the intersex name. It's like they are letting them get away with it and not telling them what they are doing is wrong and not right. What's not even more fair is when people let trans people speak on behalf of the intersex or speak for them, when intersex people have a voice and have a right to speak up on it's<BR/>own. It feels like people are letting trans people erase and silence the intersex people's voice and experience.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-18680449619863932982008-11-24T22:45:00.000-05:002008-11-24T22:45:00.000-05:00Thanks Diane, I always aim to get people thinking ...Thanks Diane, I always aim to get people thinking with Open Forum questions. I myself contemplate them often so I figure if they are thought provoking why not blog about it.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-22124039090318679732008-11-24T22:15:00.000-05:002008-11-24T22:15:00.000-05:00Nicky, no offense taken, uh-hem, but homosexuality...Nicky, no offense taken, uh-hem, but homosexuality/lesbianism are also sitting in the psych ward of "no proof." Intersex is clear to the eye at birth. What's with all the calling out? Seriously, we all need to love each other, since few others will. Great post! You got us thinking.Diane J Standifordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11862850657925658079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-49097864019164152742008-11-24T13:41:00.000-05:002008-11-24T13:41:00.000-05:00Not really. Trans is not biological because their ...Not really. Trans is not biological because their no proof and the current academic, medical and scientific community can't agree to that. That's why trans still sit in the realm of the psychological conditions. I don't think the word intergender would fly and look good because it would still be in the same context as with intersex. Even as an intersex, i still think that their are trans who misappropriate the intersex name and label should be called out.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-51534009769898931492008-11-24T13:25:00.000-05:002008-11-24T13:25:00.000-05:00I think trans people who want to appropriate the w...I think trans people who want to appropriate the word intersex might look to a word like intergender to better describe what they are trying to describe. That it is biological but in the mind not the body parts as it is with intersex. Intersex and Trans are both biological, but they are different.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-12711719132590205362008-11-24T13:22:00.000-05:002008-11-24T13:22:00.000-05:00L-your right, How come people in the LGBT communit...L-your right, How come people in the LGBT community don't call out and tell those who misusing, misappropriating or silencing the experience and voices of another group. How come people don't call out transgender people who misuse the term and how come they don't tell them to stop using the intersex term when they don't qualify to have the term. How come I see trans people who still continue to misuse the intersex term and aren't called out and told to stop it. Every time I call them out for misusing the intersex name, I get called out, but when they use it, they don't get called out and i see it as being unfair and not right at all. I see it as their trying to erase my experience as an intersex and silencing my experience as an intersex at my expense for their gain. That ain't right and that ain't fair and I wonder why people aren't calling them out when they don't qualify to be intersex and don't have the right to speak on behalf or speak for the intersex community.<BR/><BR/>They would still be called intersex, because under the original HBSoC guidelines written in the late 1970's, intersex people are not expected and never required to meet the guidelines and standards of the Transsexual community. They would be called intersex regardless what gender they were chosen or chose.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-76830195730685261722008-11-24T01:18:00.000-05:002008-11-24T01:18:00.000-05:00Nicky: You're right, it isn't fair. No community s...Nicky: You're right, it isn't fair. No community should ever appropriate or silence the experience and voice of another group of people.<BR/><BR/>You're also right that transgendered people who misuse the term intersex should be called out. If people haven't been doing the callouts then that isn't fair to you, either. All I can do is try to call it out as I see it and inform other people enough so they can do the same. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call out you or anyone else for using improper pronouns.<BR/><BR/>If a woman has a hysterectomy/masectomy, she is still a woman as long as she identifies herself as much. Gender identity is more complex than what chromosomes or genitals a person has. I've heard a problem that some intersexed people have is that while their parents may assign them one gender, they grow up identifying as the other. In that case, what do you call them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-47672086712270305402008-11-23T23:09:00.000-05:002008-11-23T23:09:00.000-05:00L- The only thing I am angry at is when you see tr...L- The only thing I am angry at is when you see trans people misusing the intersex label without knowing what it feels like to be born intersex. They think being intersex is easy to them and they think that being intersex gives them a free pass. They seem to cheapen the experience of those who are born intersex.<BR/><BR/>Then explain why is it fair for a trans person and the trans community to use, abuse and prop up the intersex identity for their own gain. Why is it that the trans community is allowed to cheapen the experience of those who are born intersex and erase the experience of those born intersex.<BR/>Here's my question, how come I don't see people who call out trans who misuse the intersex label and tell them to stop misusing the intersex label.<BR/><BR/>As for Thomas Beatie, She's still a woman because of her reproductive tract that is still inside of her and here's something to think about. What would call a woman a woman because she had her breast removed because of cancer? Would you call a woman a woman because she had her ovaries and uterus removed because of cancer.<BR/><BR/>Seth-I see it because when someone draws similarities, they tend to mix them up without clearly separating them. I think that you don't understand what it's like to be intersex and I think you see intersex through the eyes of the transfolk and don't know fully what it's like to be intersex. My comments are far more solid than yours.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-17417566134851177892008-11-23T21:23:00.000-05:002008-11-23T21:23:00.000-05:00Jay - I certainly don't have first hand experience...Jay - I certainly don't have first hand experience, but from what I have heard from some transmen I know is that a small penis does develop, and some grow as large as about 4inches. <BR/><BR/>L - Thanks for the kind words, I am sorry if you tell this convo is inappropriate. The idea is not to question Mr. Beaties gender identity, his decision or even to focus on him as an individual. I use his story because the concept of a pregnant man was unheard of and unknown before his story hit the world. <BR/><BR/>As for "hermaphrodite" being an antiquated word, it is, but I can't help but scratch my head and wonder if the term could be applied to someone who is ftm and chooses to give birth. Just like queer, tranny, and dyke, have been reclaimed in some communities, and now fag on a smaller scale, I wonder if hermaphrodite could be used in a positive context.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-64613976473868724722008-11-23T21:04:00.000-05:002008-11-23T21:04:00.000-05:00@Nicky: It is true that *some* transgendered indiv...@Nicky: It is true that *some* transgendered individuals often feel as if being transgendered and intersex people share the exact same experiences, and no, it isn't fair for you to be belittled by people who don't understand you. However, Thomas Beatie is not a woman and *certainly* not an "it" and for you to say so is extremely disrespectful. I understand why you're angry at the transgendered community, but taking it out on one person you've never spoken to just because he's a member of that community isn't right either.<BR/><BR/>@QU: I enjoy your blog most of the time, but I find this discussion to be inappropriate. Transfolk are often prodded and questioned about their bodies because cis people expect to have their curiosity satiated about something that is none of their business. Although your intent is not to question Thomas Beattie's gender identity, it comes across as though his body is an question to be pondered. Theoretical questions are one thing, but I find it uncomfortable when the discussion is about a specific person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-32380653236657718712008-11-23T20:38:00.000-05:002008-11-23T20:38:00.000-05:00i don't think this is a viable argument. for one t...i don't think this is a viable argument. for one thing, i don't think you understand the changes one goes through with testosterone. as a transgender man who has been on testosterone for a year now, it is impossible for testosterone to grow a clitoris into a penis. while transmen (myself included) refer to our genitalia with male words, testoterone does not make us have penises. <BR/>also, as an intersex ally, i find the term hermaphrodite pretty offensive in general. it's an antiquated medical term which for all purposes is impossible, as you point out. <BR/>like some other comments above, i think you're confusing two separate issues.Reluctantly Healthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08382780251976575964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-75696147241044790812008-11-23T20:12:00.000-05:002008-11-23T20:12:00.000-05:00Thank you Seth.Thank you Seth.Queers Unitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074493276489593816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3451574857665049482.post-5411394491698349332008-11-23T18:34:00.000-05:002008-11-23T18:34:00.000-05:00Nicky, are you familiar with the terms "tilting at...Nicky, are you familiar with the terms "tilting at windmills" or "straw man argument?" QU has never said that trans and intersex are the same. Examining the similarities (and differences) is not equivalent to saying that they are the exact same. You're looking for a fight so you can call transfolk "it" (or any pronoun but the one they'd prefer) and talk about how their identities aren't valid. Most of your comments are just thinly veiled attempts to get a platform for your hatred toward those of us who only want to be your allies. Hopefully you'll realize that someday and we can work together, whether we identify as being the same or not.Sofiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348407469393964514noreply@blogger.com