Thursday, November 6, 2008

Prop 8 Rally At Mormon Temple in Los Angeles Nov. 6th

The Mormon Temple is responsible for spreading misinformation which has resulted in over 20 million dollars of donations to proposition 8 in California. A call has been issued to march on the Mormon Temple at 10777 Santa Monica Boulevard in Los Angeles at 2pm Thursday November 6th. Bring your signs and video cameras.

211 comments:

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Anonymous said...

There should be a demonstration at every mormon temple in the state every sunday morning. These assholes need to know that there was a cost for their bigotry.

Anonymous said...

Better than a demonstration would be actual attempts to attend. Very disruptive to a secretive cult like the Morons, to have the unwashed sitting with them for an hour a week.

Once in, drinking morning espressos, having a smoke, reading the paper during the service, generally carrying on as if home on Sunday morning. Carrying on absolutely to include smooching and cuddling. Actual fucking, perhaps not so much.

Laurie said...

My gosh! If they only knew how many gays
they have in their church! I will now
start calling the ones who voted YES on
Prop 8 MORONS! Prop 8 is HATE!


HUGS!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I'll be there. Last night's rally was very inspiring. Tyranny of the Majority.

Dawn on MDI said...

good luck. be safe. We need you all to fight another day.

Bryan Harrison said...

I was raised mormon and I plan to marry my partner in 2009. I will attend the rally today, but I hope that people will try and filter out some of the returned hate they are feeling and try to make signs for the rally that don't promote hate or use profanity against the church. I feel this way because I noticed signs like "Go to hell Mormons" last night at the rally in WEHO and statements like that only feed into them believing they are right to discriminate. I know how angry and hurt we all feel for them getting so involved and using children as scare tactics, but we will make a stronger statement if we put powerful words about equal rights and to keep church and state separate. When we get news coverage, non mormons will see and it may actually work for us if we don't send hateful messages towards the church. Gay people come from all races, religions, classes and families. Once people actually find out that a friend, co-worker or family member is gay... they usually begin to soften, understand and have compassion. We need to stand united, but also need to take responsibility to not send hate back out into the world. My aunt from Utah called me the morning of the election and told me that she hopes the vote goes so that my guy and I can get married. The members of the Mormon church have compassion and it's unfortunate that many were misguided by the leaders of the church. I am pleading to you all to not send hateful messages back into the world because it will only hurt our cause in the long run to those who already have a poor opinion of our community. There was a great sign at a rally in La Habra that said " I am a brother, son, friend, neighbor & co-worker... Don't take away my right!!" My partner and I attended a rally in my hometown of La Habra this past Sunday and put together a simple video to post on youtube, myspace and facebook. I urge you to be creative and use your god given talents to find ways to make an appeal to the heart of those that oppose equality to the gay community.
Below is a link to the video we made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rha4MGyCupQ
I am now starting to get some mean messages from those who voted Yes on 8. I get very hurt when I read them, but if I were to respond back with hatred... there will be no change in the world.

vballrh said...

I agree with Bryan. The problem with Mormons is if you demonstrate against them they just see it as persecution and validation that they are part of the "one true church" Protesting at temples especially makes them feel this way. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than to not show them hate but love? Show them there are good people outside the church and let the cognitive dissonance begin.

Anonymous said...

"The Mormon Temple is responsible for spreading misinformation"

May I point out that a temple is a building, it is not resposible for anything. The leadership of the LDS church is.

Mormon temples are closed on Sundays. Best time to show up is on Saturdays around 8AM, that's when people will start going in. Make sure you stay on the public sidewalk.

It would be better to protest at a LDS Chapel on Sunday's. A lot more people will be there. Go here to find the chapel closest to you.

http://maps.lds.org/

Queers United said...

I had to delete a comment that suggested a use of violence. Please refrain from posting anything that would suggest hatred and/or violence, this is a forum for activism and discussion of peaceful, non-violent approaches to achieving our goals.

liliput68 said...

Bryan is correct. We need to make our points with signs that our children would be proud of, not things like "f* the Mormons". I was thrilled to be at the rally last night, but we need to be the righteous ones, and make our points with strength and integrity, and NOT stoop to the level of the bigots and religious radicals. There were many straight religious supporters in the crowd, and we must show respect to get our point across, otherwise, only the idiots and bigots on OUR side will make the news, which HURTS our cause in the end. This is about EQUAL RIGHTS, not about perpetuating the hate. See you all at the Mormon Temple!

Kelli Busey said...

In the long run it is grace that is remembered. That from a radical transgender who has no problem with including civil disobedience as a bargaining tool. If I was there I would Be LOUD and PROUD of my family.

Weston said...

If you do protest, I pray that the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon you and testify to you in your hearts that Jesus Christ lives and that the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-day Saints) that you persecute is the ONLY true and living church on the face of the Earth. It has often happened that persecutors of the Saints become true worshipers of Christ- look at Saul/Paul in the Bible. There are also numerous accounts like this in the Book of Mormon, which you will find to be the word of God, if you will sincerely read and pray about it. In short, I hope you protest and in so doing discover the truth! God bless you!

Queers United said...

Weston - It is your church that is persecuting against our families. It is the most unchristian thing one can do. God loves all people and to deny our spouses and our children equal rights is an abomination.

Anonymous - You said protests should be on Sundays, but from what I understand Mormon Temples don't meet Sundays and only on Mondays.

Weston said...

QU: God lives and he loves you. I know this. Gay marriage is not a "civil rights" issue, it is a moral one. According to God's word, it is immoral for members of the same sex to engage in sexual activity- that is reserved by divine design to heterosexual couples. Marriage and family are the foundational elements of our society, and despite the outcry from his children who he loves, God cannot and will not allow the sacred institution of marriage to be diluted by unholy unions. I am happy that the people of California were still righteous enough as a whole to understand that principle.

I am sorry for any pain or heartache this causes you or your loved ones, I really am. God has taught that "wickedness never was happiness" and I believe that. Sorrow and heartache are always the wages of sin, the ultimate consequences of disobeying God's plan.

But my sorrow for you and your loved ones is even deeper- I not only feel sad that you feel so bad about the result of this election, but I also mourn because your sorrow appears to the "sorrowing of the damned", which is what happens when people realize that they cannot find happiness in sinning. I hope that your heartache will cause a mighty change of heart within you, which will cause you to change your life and live it within the bounds the Lord has set. If everyone did that, there would be NO debate about the "right" of gays to marry.

And make no mistake- this is NOT a civil rights issue. Even the federal courts across the country have refused to make this a civil rights issue under 14th amendment equal rights law, finding that sexual orientation is not a "suspect class" under the 14th amendment. If the courts (or the people of America) agreed with you that this was, indeed, a civil rights issue, they would make "sexual orientation" a suspect class.

So, while I am genuinely sorry for your pain, I think California made the right decision, and I hope that the people of California are courageous enough to toe the line when it comes to marriage being preserved as a sacred union between a man and a woman (as for the LDS polygamous past, that is the past and the Lord has decreed that in our time, that is how marriage is defined- ONE man and ONE woman).

Best of luck to you, and please know that if you come into our chapels you will be welcomed with open arms.

Queers United said...

Weston - I know God loves me the way he created me and my gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender brothers and sisters. We are created in the image of God and are a reflection of the lords beauty and natures fabric of diversity. Marriage equality has zero to do with gay sex. Whether or not prop 8 passes, gay sex will continue. If we ban heterosexual marriage will heterosexuals stop having straight sex? That is a silly notion. Marriage is about granting rights, the right to visit a loved one in a hospital, the right to file joint tax returns. The right to protect our children. Jesus was all about the disenfranchised. Your interpretation of the bible is your choice but that is not mine. There is also a separation between church and state. What if some people felt Mormons were immoral and wanted to deny you rights? I am sure you would be up in arms. Regardless of how you feel about marriage it is WRONG to eliminate fundamental rights. I will pray for you friend.

Weston said...

But marriage has never been a fundamental right for gays, in this country or anywhere else. Not sure where the idea that there is a "fundamental right" for gays to marry originated. It is certainly not in the U.S. Constitution- I am not even sure there is a "fundamental-right-to-gay-marriage" penumbra emanating from the constitution. And now it is definitely not a fundamental right according to the California constituion.

I am confused about where you get the notion that gays have a "fundamental right" to marry. If you are talking about natural rights, I believe that natural rights are imbued upon mankind bu their Creator, and nothing in the canons of holy writ anywhere indicates that one of those natural/fundamental rights includes a right for gays to marry. that may be painful to hear, but it does not change reality.

By the way, are you really a god-fearing Christian, or do you just play one when discussing this issue with "moronic" Mormons?

I should add that if you are planning to protest at LDS temples on Sundays, you will be sorely disappointed. They are closed on Sundays. That may seem ironic, but so it is. The best place to come see mormons on Sunday would be to any LDS chapel. We look forward to greeting you there!

Anonymous said...

I use to be a practicing Mormon, and haven't practiced in 14 years. I didn't leave the church for any reason of disbelief, but i now see that it's not for me. I voted NO on Prop 8, and feel horrible that it passed :( I'm so sorry! Being Mormon before, i can tell you that the Church it self has made NO DONATIONS to any political party or any proposition on any ballot. But individuals of the church can do as they wish. The church teaches the members free agency. The Prophet will never tell the members how to vote.
Just thought you should know :)
Tami

Anonymous said...

Just dropping by to give my support and say that if you want to make in impact on Mormons, the best places to protest are the local chapels. They are private property, so keep that it mind. Mormon worship in temples is VERY different from the worship done in chapels. You will be able to reach out to the average member more effectively at a chapel. Mormons only attend the temple once a week or once a month and less than half of their active membership actually attends. But at chapels you'll get everyone, especially potential converts in the neighborhood.

I have resigned from the church over this. I have never seen the church act with such heavy handedness on bigotry. I saw hatred enshrined in law for the first time and it sickened me. Weston is full of it. He's talking out both sides of his mouth. There are many, many mormons who are mothers of gay people, sisters, friends or just empathetic to the situation who are furious. Check it out at:

http://signingforsomething.org/blog/

Weston said...

There is nothing hateful about making sure a sacred institution that is divine in its origins remains sacred. Nobody describes the anti-polygamy legislation back in the 19th century or the resulting Reynolds decision (or other Supreme Court decisions) as "hateful." It was just the people of the United States seeking to preserve their definition of marriage, just as we are today. There is no hate involved, just a determination to protect the institution of marriage from dilution.

We welcome ALL to come to Christ and abandon all unholy inclinations and behaviors in the process. That is a LOVING invitation, and there is absolutely no hate involved. Now that the California constitution is amended to reflect the will of the people in a document that (hopefully) CANNOT be overturned or rewritten by activist judges, we should put this behind us and be friends.

Weston said...

And, to stem this argument in the bud, the fact that Joseph Smith (allegedly) married Emma Hale, Fanny Alger, Lucinda Morgan Harris,
Louisa Beaman, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Agnes Coolbrith,
Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner,
Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde,
Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Delcena Johnson, Eliza R. Snow,
Sarah Ann Whitney, Martha McBride Knight,
Ruth Vose Sayers, Flora Ann Woodworth,
Emily Dow Partridge, Eliza Maria Partridge,
Almera Johnson, Lucy Walker, Sarah Lawrence,
Maria Lawrence, Helen Mar Kimball, Hanna Ells,
Elvira Cowles Holmes, Rhoda Richards, Desdemona Fullmer, Olive Frost, Melissa Lott,
Nancy Winchester, and Fanny Young has NOTHING to do with this issue, nor does it makes Latter-day Saint supporters of prop 8 into hypocrites.

God has not commanded gays to marry, but we believe he did command Joseph Smith to take plural wives. That practice was discontinued, also at God's command. As gay marriage serves no "eternal" or even "temporal" purposes, it should not be recognized by law. The good people of California realize this and voted accordingly. Kudos!

Anonymous said...

Weston, fundamental rights do not belong to specific segments of our population. They belong to everyone. Blacks were given the right to vote not because of the "black-fundamental-right-to-vote" as you would put it, but because voting has been deemed a fundamental right of the United States Citizen. Fundamental rights can be restricted, but only to serve a compelling state purpose. What compelling state purpose is served by not allowing gays to marry?

sideon said...

Weston, I like the old institution of marriage where women were chattel, had no rights, they stayed pregnant, and they obeyed. Are you talking about that tradition of marriage? Or do you mean the Mormon version, wherein one is required to have polygamous spouses in the afterlife to be able to enjoy the highest glory of God? Brigham Young, the 2nd Mormon prophet and president said: "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of Gods, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Journal of Discourses 11:269)

Marriage and celebration of love and commitment are human rights. Anything else, and anything less is pure bigotry. The "separate but equal" excuse for "unions" and "partnerships" didn't work for the civil rights movement, and it's not going to work for gays and lesbians.

Nice try, Weston. No cookie for you.

Jer said...

Weston you can post here until you're blue in the face about what god has and hasn't prescribed but we don't believe in your god or your rules. You can state as emphatically as you want that you KNOW the LDS church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH and we still don't have to believe you or even agree with you. Many other churches have stated the same thing. Just because your god doesn't believe gay marriage isn't right doesn't mean your church has the right to tell non-believers in YOUR religion what they can and can't do.

I don't care how emphatically your church states that it's a moral issue, not political. It IS a political issue. It affects people in the public sphere who have NOTHING to do with religion. Quit legislating the morals of your church on those that don't believe in your church.

Anonymous said...

It's amazing how a minority population (gays and lesbians) are persecuting another minority population (Mormons only make up 2% of Califonians) in order to make a point about tolerance. Anyone else see the irony in that?
I would focus on the groups as a whole that went against what you believe is right, not one TINY segment of it.
Michelle

Robbie said...

in reality. i was at the rally last night it was great. but as for going and marching onwards to the temple. it's like you don't really believe the mormon church in general are the reason prop 8 passed? cause that would be ridiculous. mormons were not the main cause. they helped it pass. but not the majority. i feel as if we will not accomplish anything to march their. especially cause i come from a mormon family. and i know that the members have free choice to vote as they please. it was not the church that you should be angered with. but the members and other fellow Californians. I just hope you take into consideration that this could cause more problems attacking a church opposed to something like last night. i just hope you consider the whole idea of what your thinking. i wish the best in either case. and support us all. despite the decision. and will be there whatever the case or change may be. thank you.

Anonymous said...

It is true that the LDS church practiced polygamy. It became an issue enough to outlaw it. The LAW made it illegal for anybody to practice polygamy. Therefore, the church stopped practicing it, because the law is the law.

As is with this. The law is made by the people. The majority. It's been twice that it's passed.

The LDS church respects and follows the law. As should every citizen of this great country and respect the voice of it's citizens.

Anonymous said...

I hope they lose their tax exempt status.
http://worldofwonder.net/archives/2008/Nov/06/lets_give_those_mormons_a_run_for_their_money.wow
If they want to be a PAC, fine, but they can't get the benefit of the U.S. tax laws.

I'm really tired of the "one true church" thing. I say unleash the Mormons, the Catholics, the Born Agains, and any other fundies in a steel cage and let them fight it out. The rest of us will tell them that we'll convert to the faith of the winner. Surely the Lord will be on the right side of the fight. And then when the winner emerges, we'll put on some trance music and pop some bubbly, and hijack their religion for our own evil purposes. They all think they're right.

Signed,
A Straight Girl Who Can't Live Without Her Queers

Anonymous said...

No, the LDS church didn't stop practicing polygamy because it was "the law", they stopped publicly endorsing it because The Prophet got a fax from Joseph Smith telling him to tell people to cut it out. It is still practiced, and recent polls indicate that a large percentage of Utah's population don't want to see it prosecuted.

It's ok to shack up with multiple women if you're a guy, but two well dressed men from West Hollywood can't get a break. Hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

You do realize that it was more than just "Mormons" that voted Yes on Prop 8 right? Only 2% of the population in CA is Mormon, so there were MANY MANY MANY other people who voted Yes.

Anonymous said...

It wasn't the voting that was the issue. It was the church members raising money for those asinine commercials about how all our children will be waving glow sticks and parading in the streets if Prop H8 failed. Unfortunately, the scare tactic worked. Now, the church gets to pay. Hopefully by having their tax exempt status yanked.

Anonymous said...

Polygamy was first signed into law by President Lincoln when he signed the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act. Then in the case of Reynolds vs. United States,the Supreme Court of the United States won the case making it illegal for polygamy to be practiced.

The LDS church did and will excomunicate anybody from the church if they are practicing polygamy.

So, YES, it was made into a law and the church obeyed the law.

Traditional marriage is now a law. Decided by the majority. Decided by a democracy. Decided by the people.

Weston said...

It is not OK to "shack up with multiple women if you're a guy," at least not at the same time in this life (mormon men are still "sealed" to multiple wives in the LDS temples). At one time, this was approved by God, but not amymore. Real mormons (i.e, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) have not had official plural marriages performed for the living since the late 1920s or so (there was a brief period of "post-manifesto" polygamy as LDS church members adapted to following their prophet at the time).

Having had polygamy in the past does not make it hypocritical to now decry gay marriage as an institution we don't think wise to support. Now if we had done GAY polygamous marriages, that would be something else. But I never read about any Joseph on Brigham loving, just Joseph on Fannie and others, all of which he believed to be divinely sanctioned (not sanctionable).

Please understand. I love gays, I reach out to gays, and I invite all gays to come to Christ and abandon their lifestyle choices that are outside the bounds set by the Lord.

I welcome to opportunity to discuss this in person with anyone who comes to my chapel. But again, you won't have much luck with picketing temples on Sundays. They are closed, and most members don't even attend when they are open. We are working on that one...

Robbie said...

You guys are either idiots or not getting your facts strait. mormons dont use polygamy. yes it happened way back in the 1800's, and again you are wrong the church did stop polygamy because it became illegal. and they do not participate in things that are illegal. get your facts strait before you accuse. there is a faction group that is not any part of the LDS church. they are a reformed church that do practice polygamy. yet they again have no part of the mormon church. the mormon church is very adamant about excommunicating anyone in the church who does practice polygamy. because it is against the law. and that my dear friends is the cold hard truth. whether you like it or not.

Weston said...

Remember, we don't hate gays at all. We just think gayness is loathsome.

Anonymous said...

Ok, in defense of the Mormons. The "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" (Mormons) do not still practice polygamy, but there are break-offs of the church that do. If a Mormon practices polygamy, the Church will excommunicated the individuals. I know, because i am an ex Mormon.
I voted NO on Prop 8

Good luck, and keep hate out of this, i am on your side!

Anonymous said...

Mormonism is a cult. Any of my fellow mainstream Christians would agree. I feel bad that they are the spokespeople for this proposition. Even mainstream Christians who support Prop 8 don't like Mormonism.

Anonymous said...

KEEP YOUR RELIGION OUT OF MY CONSTITUTION!

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!

Weston said...

Anon:

I am sorry to hear that you left the Church of Jesus Christ. I hope that you can either find it in your heart to forgive whoever offended you (an apostle, even an apostle of Jesus Christ, recently taught us that it is the offended person who needs to step up to the plate on this and you should listen) or repent of whatever commandment you were not living up to that caused you to lose the spirit and deny the faith.

That said, perhaps you do not remember that, in a manner of speaking, members of the Church of Jesus Christ DO still practice polygamy, but not in the sense that the previous poster seemed to think. We practice a sort of polygamy for the dead; that is to say that LDS church members (men) can get sealed to more than one wife if his first one dies and he remarries. The implication is that in the Celestial Kingdom, all of his wives who were sealed to him in this life will be with him. The only difference between pre-manifesto and post-manifesto on this issue is that now, a man is only allowed to be married to one LIVING woman at the same time.

The Church of Jesus Christ is true, and it is not on trial here. I am sorry that the stance the LDS church took on gay marriage, which was inspired by God himself, has apparently hurt so many. But if you would make the choice to stop living lifestyles that are contrary to God's plan, then you would not be so easily offended.

Weston said...

Anon:

Nobody put "religion" into your constitution. Your constitution now reflects the desires of the people of the State of California, and not the political whims of a handful of judges. Nobody is stopping you from convincing the people of California that it ought to be different, the same way the proposition 8 supporters did. We believe in the voice of the people. For now, the voice of the people (NOT religion) has chosen (wisely so, in my humble opinion) to ban gay marriage in California. Should the day come that the voice of the people (NOT religion) chooses something else, then we would have to accept that. But then, the state would be ripening for destruction and I fear that day...

Robbie said...

weston. dont preach bullshit here. we wont listen. you dont need to come here and tell us we are living a bad life. you dont have that right. and you for someone who is speaking on behalf of an entire religion. i am sure they would not support of you saying such things either. its uncalled for. so either have civil conversations or get the hell out. cause that's just not okay.

Weston said...

Anon:

Mormonism, be it called a "cult" or a "church" is not interested in the position of mainstream Christianity vis-a-vis itself. At least, I am not. Whether it is labeled a "cult" or a "church" or even the "Kingdom of God on the Earth," it is the only true and living [insert descriptive word here, i.e., "cult", "church," whatever] on the face of the Earth.

In this case, a rose (or church, for that matter) by any other name really DOES smell as sweet. So naming it "cult" or "church" does not really make a difference. Call it whatever you want.

Robert O'Brien said...

How dare those Mormons stand up for judicial restraint and right reason by voting an end to a fictitious right created by Ron George & friends out of thin air! The nerve of them, making a distinction between the actual text of the state constitution and the midrash that exists only in the minds of activist judges!

Anonymous said...

The point of the polygamy talk is that polygamy is illegal and the church stopped practicing it because it is ILLEGAL. Because it is the LAW.

Traditional marriage is what is LEGAL. Because it was decided that way.

Let us all now respect the law.

Weston said...

Robbie:

Nobody says anyone is living a "bad life." Again, we members of the Church of Jesus Christ do not judge "lives," only certain behaviors. Although the Lord at one time approved a secret sexual relationship between Fannie Algers (14 years old) and Joseph Smith under the auspices of celestial marriage, that does not make homosexual BEHAVIOR moral in his sight. We do NOT hate or judge gays themselves. God just forbids gays having sexual or intimate relationships with members of the same sex. If you are, it does not mean you have a "bad" life. Just one that is not in harmony with God's will.

Anonymous said...

YES ON 8!

Robbie said...

well. then you should phrase your wording that way. cause you come off differently. i enjoy that you are standing up for the church. you need to. because i think this protest will go nowhere. the mormons are strong. they will be fine. a group of us wont matter standing at a temple. i think something else should be done. however thank you for the wording. i still believe though even though i am gay that i will be getting into heaven. and god will love me no matter. whether it be the celestial. telestial. or terrestial. i will get in. and so will all the other good people of us.

Weston said...

Anon @ 2:39 pm:

Proposition 8 already passed, so there is no need for that particular rallying cry.

Weston said...

Robbie:

That is true, as long as you either choose to pursue a heterosexual lifestyle or remain celibate and quiet about your homosexuality. God definitely wants you in heaven, he just does not want you to have gay sex. Keep clean, and you will eventually have the great blessing of feeling heterosexual attraction, even if it is not until the resurrection. You rock, my same-sex-attracted but still stalwart (hopefully) brother!

P C said...

I agree with that comment Anon.

That being said, why are people still rallying with their "No on 8" signs?

PC

Anonymous said...

Things like attacking the Mormon church is the same stupid attitude that will get Gays in trouble time and time again. When are you going to learn that this won't help your cause? Many, if not most of these protesters, are the same that want all their rights and yet attack the military that defends their rights. The Mormon Church and many other Faith that emphasize strong traditional families are the strength of this nation. If they go away, you might as well kiss all of your "rights" away.

Weston said...

Amen to anon @ 2:47 pm. Amen.

Again, please come to my church to "protest." We will invite you to participate and you will be touched by the Spirit of God.

Anonymous said...

Marriage has always been defined as a union between a man and a woman. Any rights or benefits attached to marriage are, by definition, given to that union. The original and historical definition of marriage has just been retained. People still honor the importance of maintaining marriage and family as its own separate unit. It is the fundamental unit of society. Since we are born either male or female, the present definition of marriage is available to all and is not discriminatory.

Gays don't want marriage though, anymore than they want to have a relationship with the opposite sex, because that is at the center of what marriage is. Gays want something else. I don't know what the best term for gay unions is, or what rights or benefits that union should have, but I know what that union is not. That union is not marriage and has its own definition altogether; it is not fair to gays or to any other group to call and treat it like what it is not.

Redefining a group to be part of that group is not equality. Blacks did not ask whites to redefine the definition of white to get equal rights.

Anonymous said...

I've been to a Mormon church, and I wasn't touched by the spirit of anything. People were friendly but the friendliness was really fake. FYI I'm not gay.

The person who took me was hardcore into it and grew up in it, but like so many others, she now considers herself an ex member. When she was a member she used to sneak Starbucks. I'd tease her because if I were her, I'd be sneaking vodka or something.

Anyway, I have nothing against Mormons but they don't seem so popular and I don't think it's going to help their cause to push a ban on gay marriage as much as they do. It'll just turn more people off and they'll lose even more membership. Isn't their membership shrinking faster than any other religious group?

Anonymous said...

You know, black voters voted en masse in support of prop 8. If you are planning on picketing mormon chapels, why no go ahead and don white robes and picket black neighborhoods too?

To me, the fact that black voters were so in favor of prop 8 also shows that this issue CANNOT be viewed as a civil rights issue, any more than a "right" to marry humans and animals can (isn't gay marriage pretty much the same thing?)...

Anonymous said...

man.. you guys/girls/gays/lez lost the battle, now you found a new battle to fight..
cant get enough of it?
CALIFORNIA HAS DECIDED!!


JAZZ

Anonymous said...

Even though No on 8 spent more money on commercials and had lots of corporate and celebrity backing, they want to blame it all on Mormons which comprise about 2% of the population. To be honest, I hardly ever saw a YES commercial on TV. I did see about 50 Billion NO commercials. What does that say? Millions of Californians agree that Marriage is an institution reserved for Man and Woman.
That's the way it is.

Anonymous said...

Come on, California gays! Get over it! 28 (?) other states (over HALF) have gay marriage bans in their CONSTITUTIONS! At least 14 others have STATUTES prohibiting gay marriage. That is at least 42 states where gay marriage is simply NOT allowed. California gays were not singled out for persecution by "the Mormons" or anyone else. California has just joined the super-majority of other states who ban same-sex marriage. Are you going to claim that "the Mormons" are behind the same sex marriage bans that exist in nearly every state in the union?

The majority of the people think same sex marriage is WRONG and refuse to give it any legitimacy. Accept it and move on.

Anonymous said...

how dare you all attack an innocent church for standing up for what they believe. you are the haters

Robert Reincke said...

Rallying and peaceful civil disobedience is a proud, American heritage. It has been useful in every fight from women's rights to black rights. It shows the world that we care about the topic and intend to make change (and it will happen Mormons..you are on the LOSING side since gays are vested in fair treatment and calling our relationships marriage if that suits us...we will NEVER give up because we aren't going away and we aren't going to buy insane One True Church baloney either). Rallying, protesting and showing our strength, our passion, our ability to stand up to a challenge is a good and powerful sign. Obama stood up to McCain. He didn't want to have to go into mud slinging but he did. Jesus stood up to the money changers at the Temple. He had a strong voice. Protest. Be there. Do not be discouraged by these nay sayers who speak words of fear and division. They will lose anyhow. But now is the time to show that we do care about marriage about equality and about being our true selves. Please rally and please think of Martin Luther King and even Obama in their intelligent approach to speaking strongly with love. I'll see you there (and at the chapels if we later agree that that is a good idea).

Anonymous said...

Yeah, why don't you idiots go an demonstrate every sunday morning at the LA Temple. You are probably smart enough to figure out that nothing goes on at Mormon temples on sundays anyway.

I am proud to have waved a Yes on 8 sign. It has nothing to do with hate. It has everything to do with love, actually. We love the sinner, despise the sin. We love our kids and don't want them indoctrinated to the homosexual lifestyle. As the results of this election show closer to the last one, we know we are losing the battle, and that is expected, as the final days are ushered in. You guys will ultimately triumph and will cheer in the streets when it does pass, as the state keeps getting more and more wicked. I just hope I am out of this state when the judgement finally comes. I will watch from afar. Happy demonstrating.....

Anonymous said...

We look forward to welcoming you, both to the outside of our temple grounds and into our chapels.

Note though, that even the good reverend whom you cite would probably have been OPPOSED to gay marriage. Most black voters were. Are you also planning on donning white robes and picketing black neighborhoods? It is your right!

Anonymous said...

YEAH!!!!

Let's do that whole picketing thing with the white robes at the black neighborhoods!

i have this fabulous Prada robe. it's not completely white though, its vanilla.

after that we can go to the mexican barrios and protest those sexy latinos!

i just love latinos, but am saddened that most of them voted in support of prop 8. gays need love too, i should know, i've been gay for about 69 years! (te he, i'm so naughty)

rainbow kisses to all!!!!!

RG

Anonymous said...

Well, if you are going to single out groups who contributed to the passage of prop 8, you might as well do that, you fucking racist.

Brian said...

Hope to see you at the rally today, Weston! Make sure you wear a big name tag so we all know who you are!

Weston said...

I won't be there, but I would be happy to send some representatives of my church who do wear black nametags to visit you and teach you about the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Robert Reincke said...

The final days are here Anonymous Mormon (can't use your real name?)..They are hear already and we see them in the hope the change, the love that is conquering the generations and eons of fear and badgering that humanity has had to live through. Hope for new possibilities, dreams of the love and harmony of mankind. Look at this argument. It is about marriage between loving couples. Your children aren't going to be indoctrinated into the homosexual lifestyle because its not a lifestyle its a choice and if you could look beyond the shroud of fear and supersticion that you are so mired in, you would see that. None of your arguments make any sense. Most people choose not to even bother with the likes of you because your own personal fear and personal shame and resentment at your own poor choices shine through every bit of anger and resentment that you spew. Yes, march, rally, fight on. Go forth and say "we demand our rights now." Because now is the time. The end of days arent' coming with some mystical being coming down from the heavens. They are here and you are witnessing the huge tide changing all over the world as Hope comes before Fear. Love comes before bigotry. Isn't it clear whose side is whose on this. If it is the end of days, grab your No on 8 sign and join us. Say a big prayer first to your God...he's the same as all of ours. We are the Same. We are One. I believe that. Even you are One despite your fear and attrocious behavior. You will lose. You give it up. Mark my word. The end of days. I'm enjoying it. It's wonderful. And the ride has just begun where Love rules, we who claim love (as in marriage in this instance) are part of the biggest, most profound transformation this world has ever known. I'm sorry you are so stuck. You don't have to be gay (although most homophobes are...look at history) to join us.

Robert Reincke said...

Weston...please go ahead and instead of praying try meditation. Maybe you'll hear something instead of just talking...talking...talking the same old useless information that has not served humanity in any shape or form and is the cause of most of the wars on the face of this earth.

Robert Reincke said...

Ooops I meant to say it's NOT a choice...I was typing to fast (above).

RR

Anonymous said...

Y'all must be the most uninformed jackass alive! First, the Church did not donate money; its members did. Second, 2% of Californians are Mormon - where is the vitriol toward the others? Third, I've not: (1) heard an epithet/curse from a Yes supporter; (2) seen a Yes supporter flip-off anyone; (3) seen a No sign destroyed or stolen. Yet, while holding my Yes sign, I was called names, cursed, and flipped off. Hundreds of Yes signs were stolen or destroyed just in Irvine. The No’s call us haters? Wow! Fourth, the No’s told whopping lies: (1) Lie: 8 takes away rights - Truth: the Family Code: “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses[;]” (2) Lie: if 8 fails kids won't be taught gay marriage in school - Truth: our Department of Education's website (http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/se/faq.asp) reveals 96% of school districts provide "comprehensive health education" and the Education Code requires schools doing so must teach: "the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage;" thus, if marriage include same-sex couples then 96% of schools will teach same-sex marriage; (3) Lie: marriage is a civil right – Truth: it is not, just ask Obama (www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG5u04Gbg0A). The list of No’s lies go on.
Fifth, talk about blackmail, go to http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/20/01429/971 and see how the No’s sought to destroy individuals Yes’s; while you are at it, how about all those boycotted by the GLBT crowd for not endorsing their lifestyle: Coors; Manchester Hyatt; The Grand Del Mar; Bolthouse Farms; Glencoe/McGraw Hill; etc. Sixth, the Atkins' ad is despicable. Anyone who has met an LDS missionary knows that 99.9% are good, selfless and loving; while their 20-something counterparts are mostly pursuing self-centered interests (education, wealth, etc. [all good, don’t get me wrong]) or getting drunk and laid. LDS missionaries teach of Christ, serve others 6 ½ days a week, don’t watch TV or listen to the radio, don’t date, drink, or smoke; and are self-funded. Making them the target of this mean-spirited ad is the lowest. Shame on Dante and David. I’ll leave y’all with a few thoughts on tolerance. The issue in Prop 8 was not tolerance; it was endorsement. Yes’s were tolerant in the face on the No’s vitriolic intolerance. Yes’s chose not to endorse a radical re-definition of marriage. Most people intuitively recognize that if the law endorses everything it tolerates, we will eventually tolerate everything and endorse nothing. The GLBT crowd should respect the will of the people, stop lying about rights being taken away, etc., and enjoy the Domestic Partnerships they lobbied to obtain. Y'all should stop writing and start reading. Don't come to our church and we won't come to your glory holes.

Anonymous said...

WOW! What a bunch of misguided, hate mongering gays!

Anonymous said...

When Mormons were chased from state to state in pursuit of religious freedoms, they finally ended up in a desert in the middle of nowhere...which later became the crossroads of the west. California has spoken. TWICE. If you don't like it...MOVE!!!
Some relocation suggestions:
Mass
Conn
Canada
Belgium
Spain
Norway
All very nice places to live.

Robert Reincke said...

Allowing the term marriage gives young gays the feeling that they too can engage in safe, loving relationships that are, as they should be, a part of the fabric of society. Instead of thinking that gay relationships need to be called something else. Too bad the word marriage seems to be something that religious groups think they own. It's a word. You don't own the word, you don't own the right, you just don't own it. The gays aren't the ones who are misguided or hate mongering...but, speaking for myself, looking at gay history, yes, it makes me angry. You, being angry about gays wanting to marry, is simply stupifying. I'm off to the rally. Bye from me.

Robert Reincke said...

Oh one last thing. I read a blog on where conservatives could move...Poland and Georgia. Why don't you move there because things will change and you're not going to like it with your current attitude. That's the Truth of the matter. Too bad for you!

Anonymous said...

And you Robert, thinking that marriage is just a "word" is all the more reason to protect it.
Have fun!

Anonymous said...

Don't worry...we are prepared to get the heck out of California when things change...but for now...we'll stick around.

Kai Cross said...

Amazing, all these brave "Anonymous" mormonsthink they have the right to ANY moral ground in this issue. Not only are they taking away a basic civil right, they also ran a VERY DIRTY campaign full of lies. Funny, how lying is against their commandments too. May God forgive them.

And then you have poor Weston, who thinks God will reward him for sharing his testimony and that he stands for truth.

I'm a former mormon, even served a mission and had multiple leadership positions, including Gospel Doctrine teacher. I'm SO glad I got out of the cult, and came to realize how false it is.

A previous poster was right--far better to protest on a Saturday, when many more mormon will be attending temple services.

And may God forgive the mormons for the evil that they do.

Anonymous said...

Kai is from Germany, right?

Anonymous said...

The Protect Marriage organization used current statutes straight from the laws and codes of California in their advertising...Kai is uneducated, and uninformed. No need to ask God to forgive us honey...but you best get on your knees and beg forgiveness before it's too late

Anonymous said...

hmm.. this against the mormon thing is gay!

Big Wave Dave said...

Quite amusing comments. (I'm glad I don't personally know any of the few of you who seem to be on either of the two extremes.)

How about the gay folks team up with the Mormons to try to get any sort of non-traditional marriage accepted, including botoh gay marriage and polygamy. Perhaps the real problem here is that Mormons feel like since they aren't allowed to have their alternative form of marriage, then neither should gays have theirs.

From a legal (and logical) standpoint, any argument made against any of these other alternative forms of marriage, e.g. polygamy, could also be made against gay marriage. There really is no middle ground. Either marriage is "traditional," i.e. between one man and one women, or it is not. Any argument that there is some other middle ground (traditional and gay marriage are OK, but every other form of marriage is not) is hollow and hypocritical.

Can't wait to see what other vitrol is written next.

Kai Cross said...

Another "Anonymous" critic. What a coward. And what an ignoramus! The "Protect" Marriage org used ads and propaganda that were both deceitful and outrageous lies. And no logical person, gay or straight, will believe otherwise.

There have been MANY legal complaints made about your lying--but none against the No on 8 campaign. We ran a clean campaign!

You NEED God's forgiveness... and while you're at it, ask him for brains too, so that you can know the difference between civil marriage and religious marriage, that the two are separate, and that this country was founded on SEPARATION of church and state.

God loves his children JUST as they are. Your Book of Mormon is false, and your Bible is broken.

And as for the other Anonymous, Kai is a Hawaiian name, and I'm both a native Californian and part Hawaiian.

Again, may God forgive the mormons for the evil that they do.

Anonymous said...

I find it ironic that gays and gay sympathizers who threw food and water bottles at us, stole and vandalized our signs, cussed us out, flipped us off, and stole our bumper stickers call us haters. LOL Hilarious! Yay for Prop 8!! The voice of the people was heard LOUD AND CLEAR!!

Anonymous said...

In YOUR FACE, HATERS!!! AAAHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

You lose AGAIN!

And no, I'm not mormon. I just think that homosexuals should keep their sex lives in the bedroom and not the classrooms of kindergarteners. Sick!

Cristina said...

Just to clarify something that I noticed has been confused repeatedly: Yes, Mormons practiced polygamy once upon a time, but it was both God and U.S. law that required it be terminated. As for those "Mormons" who still practice polygamy, they are part of their own "Mormon sect," I guess you could call it. The true Mormons that remain a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not practice polygamy and haven't practiced it since revelation was given that it must cease. Please don't get these mixed up. I'm a Mormon myself and it gets a little frustrating when the general public start getting some things mixed up. If anyone recalls that guy (I can't remember his name at the moment) that was on the news for his polygamist ways, etc. etc., he claimed to be Mormon, but what he created and dictated was his own sect that seems to be based on the old Mormon polygamist ways (from Joseph Smith's time). That would be a separate sect that is not in any way associated with the LDS Church, so please don't get the two mixed up. As for gay rights, I'm neutral on the matter. I respect those who go about their lives with a same-sex partner/spouse. Personally, I believe that homosexuality is not a choice, considering I've seen friends of my own struggle with accepting being gay when they never expected that of themselves. Everyone ought to be respected for their lifestyles, views and opinions, but they don't have to be accepted. There are some things I don't accept about gay marriage, but I respect gay marriage and those who support it.

John said...

Um hello? What are all these confused Mormons doing hanging on our QUEER website? Sounds pretty gay to me. Thanks for giving me an incredible insight into your ridiculous religious views. See you at the Temple!

Anonymous said...

Ran a clean campaign???? Oh my gosh...now I've heard everything. Kai...stop trying to justify your sins. repent.

Anonymous said...

Yeah...one sadly misguided hater tried to run over a group of kids on skateboards holding yes signs...in his anger he floored the gas pedal and broadsided a car in a busy intersection...what a loser!

Anonymous said...

The coward that attacked the old couple in their own front yard really furthered your cause too...just like your temple protest will. NOT

Anonymous said...

I agree with gays keeping out of our kids classrooms...that's a parents right to teach kids about gay relationships... this is where you lost the battle. 96% of California schools teach sex education. If the school chooses to teach sex ed, they must also teach about marriage AND(had prop 8 not passed) teach about alternative forms of marriage. The lesbian couple that took their first grade class to their wedding, really messed you guys up bad. Straight people were really angered at that. Is Kai going to say all this is a lie too?? If so, he IS misinformed and hasn't researched the codes and isn't keeping up current events.

Anonymous said...

Above I noted three big lies told by the No's. Kai says the Yes's told lies. Show me one? While you are at it, name one right that Prop 8 took away from y'all? I agree that no one "owns" a word. Words have independent meaning. When African-Americans got equal rights we didn't start calling them white. When woman got the right to vote we didn't start calling them men. Marriage, by definition, for thousands of years, is limited to the union of man and woman. While y'all are entitled to your own opinion, y'all are not entitled to your own facts or to make-up your own definitions. Whatever happened to "Were here, were queer, get used to it?" It is really pathetic that y'all now crave endorsement so badly that you need to redefine a word to feel valued. Get over it. Get a domestic partnership. Get used to it.

Anonymous said...

Go ahead and call us a cult...funny, we're the fastest growing Christian "cult" in the world...13,000,000 members strong. The reason for the growth??? A higher standard of living. Standing up to what we believe in when other churches cave. Stronger than normal marriages. FAMILY VALUES. We have always been targeted for our beliefs..we always will. Because we believe God's laws are forever and don't change with the times. As the world becomes more conditioned by sin...one church will hold strong.

Anonymous said...

That teacher in Hayward, CA that had her kindergarten class sign gay pledges and that teacher that took her class to her gay wedding really messed you people up. HAHA..How can you say it won't be taught in classrooms when IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING???? DUMBASSES

Anonymous said...

Just to inform the very first commenter:

Mormom temples are closed for services on Sunday and Sunday worship services are never held in any of the Mormom temples in the first place. Sunday servies are held in Mormon church buildings around the world.

Anonymous said...

The evil, extremist, faction of the gay movement chose the temple because they know it is most sacred to members of the LDS church. And that is their goal. Not to continue fighting for their rights peacefully, but further desecrating God, Religion, and sacred places of worship. The mainstream gays won't be there...just the radicals.

Anonymous said...

They own radio stations as well. I would target the LA station Bonneville International. They are the new 100.3- protest in front of their building. Do not support advertisers that are on their station. Hit them where it hurts. Mormons are very proud that they have no debt. I am sure you can run with this. Good Luck+ do more homework and there is a goldmine.

Anonymous said...

to all lds members:
its not a good idea to keep on posting on this site, it only gives them more amo. stay strong, we know better

Anonymous said...

Oh my gosh..I always thought gays were pretty mellow until I grabbed a Yes sign...what the heck? No one is saying you can't be gay...no one is saying you can't live together...no one is even saying that you can't adopt children...we're just saying...along with the majority California and the rest of the United States...is that you can't re define marriage.
we are dang scared that once you have re defined marriage, you will sue us when you can't use our churches, temples, or church adoptive services for your purposes. That you will (as you have already) force your views on our young children. RE THINK YOUR POSITION GUYS...stay out of our religions, schools...maybe then we'll stay out of your gay marriages

Anonymous said...

You don’t have to be Christian to love what Jesus taught us. Being Christian is someone who fallows Christ’s teachings, Right?? So have you “Christians” forgotten that Jesus taught unconditional love, for everyone, Gays, and Mormons!? I see a lot of HATE and judgment on this page, from both sides, and it's very UGLY! Religion separates us; hate also separates us! That’s why I’m not part of any religion anymore. I’ve been an ex Mormon, for 14 years, and NOT because I was offended by them, I still have a lot of respect for the Mormons. There basic teachings are very beautiful! I just found it hard when I got divorced to live such a life of obedience. I needed to look outside, and it’s been really good for me! Being Mormon taught me to always do my best, to be impeccable with my word. That is what I took with me! Who knows how I would have turned out if I didn’t have that in my life as a teen in Los Angeles  Maybe a flake?!

Remember behavior is based on beliefs, if you understand that one concept; it helps to see others point of views, and where they come from. You either do things based on fear or love… where is yours coming from??

I support love of any kind, and wish all you good luck!
I did vote NO on Prop 8
Tami

Anonymous said...

Mormon here. I was against Prop 8 and see no reason to disallow gay marriage, but I am really getting pissed at the attacks against Mormons and the Mormon Church. Mormons acted legally and responsibly in campaigning for Prop 8. The threats, protests, and general tantrum throwing that we've seen in response to the vote are petty and accomplish nothing. Hate breads hate. You can choose to break the cycle now or continue the spiral until it's out of control. The right thing to do is fight this battle in legal, dignified ways. Appeal to every court possible and prepare for another proposition to repeal the amendment.

If you really want to make ground with the Mormons, then tell them you can sympathize with their ancestors who were endlessly persecuted for their unconventional polygamous marriages. A softening of hearts is what is going to win this battle. When I see the types of comments and attacks against my church, it puts me in a defensive position. Where I once was able to stand with most of you against Prop 8, I feel like an outsider when you become the hateful, intolerant ones. This has got to stop.

Anonymous said...

AMEN!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I'm watching some of the protest on the news here in LA and the protest is turning into a big nothing.

Anonymous said...

I live at the entrance gate right outside of the Temple grounds... it's nuts!
Tami

Anonymous said...

The intolerance of religion and personal beliefs of this group is shameful. You are entitled to your beliefs as everyone else, but what gives you the right to infringe on other people's beliefs? This country was founded on the right of religios freedom. Furthermore, targeting the Mormon Church is just ignorance. The church members were part of a coalition made up of all religious sects. Just because the Mormon community were more faithful to the cause and their beliefs you attack them? Shameful.

Anonymous said...

I just think we should advocate for equality for all. The same rights for everyone regardless of rce, creed, religion, sexual preference, gender, etc.

People don't really choose who they are, and you certainly cannot choose your sexual desires, only whether or not you wish to repress them.

I second the notion of how woudl those who voted yes on 8 feel if it were there group, say hetrosexuals who weren't allowed to marry. Or christians, or any other group. What then?

my .02

i don't see how what two individuals choose to do with their lives is anybody else's business.

- brian

Anonymous said...

Mormons are less than 2% of California, but only 40% of them are active and of the active members, they were very divided over this issue. So the 2% dwindles to less than 1%.

I'd say let's go after the blacks. They're the culprits. I attended a UCLA Law seminar about the proposition on Monday and heard accusations of black bigotry. Now, isn't that sweet?

Anonymous said...

HAHAHAHHAA I laugh at the idea that these homosexuals would go after african americans. They know they wouldn't get sympathy for doing that so they attack an easier target...Mormons. What hypocrites these people are. They only believe in diversity and tolerance if it fits their own agenda. Pathetic.

By the way, I'm watching the news, too, and they are getting very little coverage. It looks like a big waste of time.

Anonymous said...

yes, i love it! its done & over with!

Anonymous said...

I believe what the Mormons fear is that if this prop had NOT passed, the law would insist that they marry gays in the Temple. Marriage in the Mormon Temple is very sacred to them, and something all members strive for, but not all achieve. You must live a very stricked lifestyle, and get a Temple recommend from the leaders of the church to enter the Temple. Sooooo based on that, you might see why they feel the way the do.

Tami
former LDS

Shannon said...

I find Kai's comments very interesting. Just a little FYI, Kai is not his real name, he never held "mulitple leadership positions"(since when did teaching a gospel doctrine class become a leadership position??), and he is not part Hawaiian. For someone who is so upset at all the "lies", he sure has a diffcult time telling the truth.

Nikki said...

I thank God that I do not have to stand in your place on judgement day. You all really have no idea what you're doing. Mormons are NOT the only religion that believe being gay is WRONG. But of course, blame the Mormons for everything right? Gays should not be allowed to marry or have any rights as a couple. It's as wrong as murder. God did not make you gay, you CHOSE that sin for yourself; how DARE you blame a righteous, religious group for YOUR sinful actions!

Anonymous said...

You go, Nikki! AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Liz said...

These hateful homosexuals are a bunch of hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

WOW, do we have God blogging this sight? Because if you are not God then you have NO right judging any human being! Judging is a wrong! "I thank God that I do not have to stand in your place on judgment day!" Wow, this is very UGLY!! Jesus didn't teach this... where is the unconditional love in the Christian faith???

Mandy said...

You people are losing focus on what's really the issue here. Gay people can live any lifestyle they want AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T INFRINGE ON OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS. Indoctrinating school children about the homosexual lifestyle is infringing on their rights and their parents rights. Not to mention they'll start suing churches for not marrying them. It's not about hating gay people. It's about the rights for the other side, too.

Kelli Busey said...

Not bad neighbor QU :) I gota put my 2 in. We GLBT people only ask you to leave us with the same rights you have we are not asking for your religious validation. The common mistake with all of us who have found some faith or another is that next we assume the rest of the world is going to hell in a hand basket unless we, and only we with our particular religion can save them. Next we are throwing our collective might into forcing others to live by our rules. Next thing is a general revolt where our places of worship are suddenly not so secure. Sound familiar? If you worship at 10777 Santa Monica Boulevard Los Angeles ca you may have been one of the hundreds who visited my site after suddenly having to come to terms with this reality. People must be able to love whom there heart tells them to. If you are I are seen as taking that away we will own the consequences.

Robert Reincke said...

Just came from the Rally and it was spectacular. Really great. A lot of great vibes. Wonderful to be in the midst of such supporting loving people as the gays, lesbians and friends who showed up there and continue to keep showing up. I'm so proud of this movement. It's stronger and more courageous than ever. I'm proud to be gay and am thoroughly encouraged by the strength, sincerity, intent and good vibes of our people. WHAT DO WE WANT? EQUALITY: WHEN DO WE WANT IT: NOW. (I had to leave but more and more are showing up). Go!!!

Leslie said...

I am an active LDS member. I do not live in California, and truthfully I'm not sure how I would have voted. I am fully for civil unions and the rights of loving couples to be fully recognized under the law. However, one concern of mine was a loop hole that could open the door to churches being sued for not marrying same sex couples if gay marriage wasn't recognized by that specific church. I had no concern with any other part of the proposition, but I do think that religious rights should be maintained while also supporting civil unions. In other words, one should NOT trump the other; rather, an agreement that wouldn't be exclusive of either of our rights.
In any case, know there are active, strong LDS members who are compassionate to the individuals and rights of the gay community. Most of the LDS who participated in the campaign did not do so out of hate, though I know that may be difficult to understand.

Danny said...

Many groups do use the gay community as scapegoats, not just the Mormon Church. It seems that once churches taught to look inward and work on oneself, help others where you can. That has become work on others and help yourself when you can. In this case, the Mormon Church has donated more, and spoken in sermons, about voting against the gay communities rights. That is discrimination. I live in Los Angeles. There were a number of news broadcasts last week about the protectmarriage.com folks. They went to Los Angeles businesses and demanded the same amounts which were donated to the No on 8 or else the names of those business would be posted and cited for being against family. That is extortion. Protect Marriage is directly related to the Mormon Church. Protest on their site? Absolutely! I suggest that they, and any church, be taxed on political contributions. They can hide behind their tax exempt status when using money for the church, but once donations move towards discrimination and hate, hit them in their pockets.

Queers United said...

There is so much misinformation being posted by those in favor of eliminating marriage rights for same-sex couples.

Fiction: Churches could lose their tax-exemption status.

* Fact: The court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

Fiction: Unless Prop 8 passes, California parents won’t have the right to object to what their children are taught in school.

* Fact: California law clearly gives parents and guardians broad authority to remove their children from any health instruction if it conflicts with their religious beliefs or moral convictions.

Anonymous said...

Explained perfectly Leslie :)
Tami

Anonymous said...

Kelli Busey: If all GLBT people want is the same rights that straights have and are not asking for "our religious validation" y'all have that right now under the Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a): “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses.” So, go get a Domestic Partnership and leave the 2% of the CA population (Mormons) alone; stop calling the 7/10 blacks, the 6/10 Hispanics, and the 5/5 whites who voted Yes bigots and haters. Accept the will of the people and quit trying to redefine the eons old definition of marriage.
Robert Reincke: Congratulations: you have equal rights now under Family Code Section 297.5(a). Now go tell all of your GLBT friends so they can stop all the hate and go get a Domestic Partnership.

Anonymous said...

agree with your cause, but fucking up traffic in an already hectic city isn't the best way to go about getting people on your side

Anonymous said...

MORMONS. A RELIGION BASED ON FAIRYTALES PCED TOGETHER. WOW.

Anonymous said...

Queers United: Read your own “No on 8” bloggers who are calling for the extinguishment of the Mormon's tax-exempt status. Also, I have kids in High School, and somehow their history teacher finds time to talk about gay marriage during the section on the Spanish Armanda and their Chemistry teacher finds time to talk about gay marriage during the section on the number of chemical bonds the atoms of a certain element can form. I was given no prior notification.
Now address the following No on 8 lies: (1) Lie: Prop 8 takes away rights - - Truth: CA’s Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a) states that: “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses[;]” (2) Lie: if Prop 8 fails kids won't be taught gay marriage in school -- Truth: the CA Department of Education's website (http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/se/faq.asp) states that 96% of school districts provide "comprehensive health education" and Education Code section 51890(a)(1)(D) requires that schools providing "comprehensive health education" must teach, among other things, " the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage;" thus, if marriage is defined to include same-sex couples then 96% of CA schools will teach same-sex marriage in school; (3) Lie: marriage is a civil right – Truth: marriage is not a civil right, just ask Sen. Obama (www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG5u04Gbg0A).

Anonymous said...

Gays criticing Mormons for "FAIRYTALES." That is ironic. Ever read the fairytale (pun intended) called King & King? If y'all have your way my elementary school-aged kids will. Give me a break.

Leslie said...

Fiction: Churches could lose their tax-exemption status.

* Fact: The court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

This was my only concern (though I wasn't voting in CA anyway). However, non-LDS lawyers have concluded there were still loopholes regarding religion that could present potential problems for private institutions.

Queers United said...

My opinion is no church should have tax exemption, but we do have a system in place. If it is discovered that church elders and leaders urged members to donate to prop 8, yes the mormon church should lose their tax exempt status. If it is just members who did it, they have the right to spend their money towards a bigoted and hateful cause if they choose.

Tami said...

To:
California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger

I, myself, and many Californians I know are disgusted with the hatred that the passing of proposition 8 brought. I am asking you to read this over, THE FACTS, not the propaganda. Open your mind for a minute, and realize that this is terrible for future generations as well. How do you know that your future children or grandchildren won't come to you and tell you they are homosexual? Wouldn't you want your child to live a life in which the love they found was supported? Plain and simple, if you are an American, you should believe in preserving the constitution. Proposition 8's passing took away the 14th amendment for a group of people, and I would like to give it back.

Facts v. Fiction
Proposition 8 would eliminate fundamental rights for a group of Californians. It’s unfair and it’s wrong.

Fiction: Prop 8 doesn’t discriminate against gay people.
Fact: Prop 8 is simple: it eliminates the rights for same-sex couples to marry. Prop 8 would deny equal protections and write discrimination against one group of people—lesbian and gay people—into our state constitution.

Fiction: Teaching children about same-sex marriage will happen here unless we pass Prop 8.
Fact: Not one word in Prop 8 mentions education. And no child can be forced, against the will of their parents, to be taught anything about health and family issues at school. California law prohibits it.
California’s top educators including Superintendent of Schools Jack O’Connell and California Teachers all agree: Prop 8 has nothing to do with education.

Fiction: Churches could lose their tax-exemption status.
Fact: The court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

Fiction: A Massachusetts case about a parent’s objection to the school curriculum will happen here.
Fact: California gives parents an absolute right to remove their kids and opt-out of teaching on health and family instruction they don’t agree with. The opponents know that California law already covers this and Prop 8 won’t affect it, so they bring up an irrelevant case in Massachusetts.

Fiction: Four Activist Judges in San Francisco…
Fact: Prop 8 is about eliminating a fundamental right. Judges didn’t grant the right, the constitution guarantees the right. Proponents of Prop 8 use an outdated and stale argument that judges aren’t supposed to protect rights and freedoms. Prop 8 is about whether Californians are willing to amend the constitution for the sole purpose of eliminating a fundamental right for one group of citizens.

Fiction: If Prop 8 isn’t passed, people can be sued over personal beliefs.
Fact: California’s laws already prohibit discrimination against anyone based on race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. This has nothing to do with marriage.

Fiction: Pepperdine University supports the Yes on 8 campaign.
Fact: The University has publicly disassociated itself from Professor Richard Peterson of Pepperdine University, who is featured in the ad, and has asked to not be identified in the Yes on 8 advertisements.

Fiction: Unless Prop 8 passes, California parents won’t have the right to object to what their children are taught in school.
Fact: California law clearly gives parents and guardians broad authority to remove their children from any health instruction if it conflicts with their religious beliefs or moral convictions.
To sign Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/

Sincerely,

boundbydesign said...

A main point in all of this, because of this campaigne, lost or not, YOU still lost on the "children's classroom" front. Every kid in this state now knows about gay marriage, yes people mostly to blame, had thier not been such a horrible fight over it, you may have been more successful in keeping us hidden. So you lost on that front, ask most kids over the age of 10 what Prop 8 meant, he/she will know, no amount of you trying to cover us over, or hide thier eyes is going to make us go away. All of this is really sickening to me. Just because "Californian's spoke" and voted yes on this campaigne does not mean you are right and we are wrong. America's history paints a picture of a lot of laws that were passed that werent "right", a big one SLAVERY....Just because the majority spoke does not mean that you are all right, our "majority" at one point said that women should be property and blacks should never marry whites. Get off your bibles, we seperated church and state from the beginning for a reason. Just as Obama's victory proves, America as a whole is growing past its "slavery" days and too it will grow past this. Another thought...how can "your" marriage get much worse...the divorce rate is 50% and climbing, there are heteros getting married drunk and divorcing less then an hour after getting married, teenagers are getting married and divorcing after bringing a few kids into the world and leaving them with broken homes...face it, the thing you so highly covet...isn't what it used to be, and most of you "yes" people can't even respect your "marriage" the way you should, and then spout to us about "protecting" it...Protect what?? Its a f'ing joke...dont' you see?

Anonymous said...

Keep it up people! Bring as much negative and hateful attention to the Mormons as you can. People will only see the Mormons for what they are - decent, loving, caring, and TOLERANT people of God!

"Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have everlasting life."
3 Ne. 5:13

Straight against 8 said...

I heard there's going to be a protest on Saturday. Anyone have information on that?

Anonymous said...

I have thought about this long & hard & I think I have found a compromise to this situation. Marriage is a religious act. If the state of California issues a civil union to all couples (straight & gay), then leave the churches to issues marriages then all get what they want. All rights are equal, and marriage is still part of the religion institutions. The State stays out of religion (protecting marriage) & religion stays out of people rights (gay/straight unions). It seems like one of the only ways both sides will feel like their rights/belilefs etc. will be protected.

Tami said...

Re-open Proposition 8 for California

Go to:
http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/

Tami

Queers United said...

You know the saying "she doth protest too much"

I think the Mormon Church is protesting against gay marriage because of their own negative association of marriage being about polygamy.

Straight against 8 -Please bookmark us and stay tuned for further rallies and courses of action, thanks for being a straight ally for equality.

Anonymous said...

Tami lies. The first thing you wrote was a lie . . . you have no credibility thereafter: CA’s Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a) states that: “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses."

Anonymous said...

boundbydesign, be serious. America’s civil rights movement sought to vindicate democratically-ratified constitutional amendments seeking to protect and enfranchise the disenfranchised descendants of an enslaved race who had been relegated to second-class citizenship following their emancipation. Homosexuals have never been enslaved. It has never been illegal to teach gays to read and write. There have never been any gay Jim Crow laws. Homosexuals have never been required to say “sir” or “ma’am” to straight people. There have never been separated gay and straight water fountains or bathrooms. There have never been separate entrances to public buildings for gays and straights. In theaters, homosexuals have never been forced to sit in the balcony while the straights sit on the main floor. Lunch counters have never been segregated based on sexual preference. A homosexual has never required to give-up a seat on a bus to a straight person. There are no homosexual ghettos. There have never been “separate-but-equal” schools for gays and straights. Homosexuals have never been disenfranchised. To the contrary, they have successfully lobbied for domestic partnership laws which provide them with all of the legal protections afforded to married couples. The opposition Prop 8 agenda which, at its core, seeks to justify a self-centered craving for society at-large to not only tolerate but embrace a sexually-based lifestyle cannot credibly cloak itself in the mantel of the racial justice movement of the last century.

Tami said...

Stop with all the hate for the Mormons! Isn't it LOVE that you are fighting for? Then fight with love in your hearts!!
Think about it!

Go sign the petition that i posted below to re open Prop 8...

http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/

Anonymous said...

Queers United said... "You know the saying 'she doth protest too much'" Are you the head of this rag-tag group? The actual quote is "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." It’s William Shakespeare and comes from Hamlet, Act 3, scene 2, line 230 (line accuracy may differ in varying versions of the play). This is another point in the whole protect our kids in school argument.

Straight against 8 said...

To Queers United,
Thanks. A group of us want to make it to whatever is going on in LA this weekend. We're coming from Palm Springs and are trying to coordinate schedules and carpools so any information you have about times and locations would be greatly appreciated.
And as a Californian, I am very sorry and disappointed that Prop 8 passed. I am engaged, but will absolutely not get married until my gay friends can also. Marriage is about love, and now it's all about discrimination. It's sickening to me that we even have to fight this hard for basic equality.

Boundbydesign said...

Anon - I assume because you can say of that and feel that way that you don't live in my world, you have never been kicked out of a resturant for being gay, you have never been called to security offices because you used a restroom that you rightly belonged in but because others "percieved" you as in the wrong bathroom, so you were made to feel humilated and degraded. You also don't know what it is like to have your love be "shrugged off" because it is not "real". You have never been told that you cannot share in a medical plan, or insurance policy with your long time partner because you are not "married". You don't spend your days getting stared at and had profanities yelled at you because you walk down the street holding your partners hand. Someone said above how appalled they were to have people flipping them off at a yes rally, well, welcome to our every day. Every day I live in fear that someone may disagree with the way I live my life and harm myself or my partner. Every day I worry when I go into the womans bathroom, not because I "really appeart to be male" but because of the disdain that this country holds for people like me. This isn't about "marriage rights" totally, it is about acceptance of a group of people who BELONG in this country to. Last I knew, I pay personal taxes, I pay business taxes, and that should afford me the same rights and treatment under the law. I am no different, but just like the blacks today, as well as the women, are still treated differently, and that is not right, nor is it the way to make this country the best that it can be, remember the old adage, together we succeed, divided we fall. We aren't asking to change ANYTHING about your life, so stay out of ours.

Anonymous said...

Straight against 8: What is sickening is how uninformed you are. You are entitled to your own “opinion” about what you want marriage to be; however, but you are not entitled to your own "facts" about what marriage is. There is one constant that defines marriage: it shapes the rights and obligations of parenthood. The scholars report that marriage is not primarily a license to have sex or to receive benefits or social recognition. It's primarily a license to have biological children. David Blankenhorn put it best in his September 19 LA Times/Opinion: "Marriage (and only marriage) unites the three core dimensions of parenthood -- biological, social and legal -- into one pro-child form: the married couple. Marriage says to a child: The man and the woman whose sexual union made you will also be there to love and raise you. Marriage says to society as a whole: For every child born, there is a recognized mother and a father, accountable to the child and to each other." You want to define a love-contract-between-people, call it a domestic partnership then go fight for equality b/c only a same-sex couple can have a domestic partnership – STOP THE HATE GLBTs. Straight against 8, thanks for not getting married. Please don't pro-create either.

boundbydesign said...

Nor did I even suggest that the plight of gays and lesbians is even remotely the same as blacks or of women in the early parts of this country, but the essence is the same, some people just want to hate...hate because they cannot accept that which is different...there are so many mistakes made because of fear. What would you do if your child told you he was gay...you may turn him away, know that the same people you kick today will be ones who will lovingly accept him...where do you think we come from? Mars? Many of us from parents just like you...sorry, but its true.

Danny said...

To anon:

Before you get all sanctimonious about whose rights are bigger, check out the rate of suicide in gay teens. Perhaps they would be better if they were kicked off the bus.

Boundbydesign said...

Anon - oh, bring up the child rearing part...thats great...have you noticed the adoption agencies? Foster care programs? Child abuse rates? abortion rates? Rate of broken homes due to divorce, climbing above 50%? Thats a great fight...go heteros...you are doing a great job "rearing the children of our future" Because all the 17 year single mothers have been "raised" by two loving parents...geez...really? Get out of leave it to Beaver...read the book "The way we never were" by Stephanie Coontz...it will dispell some of your rightous parenting beliefs....

Queers United said...

"STOP THE HATE GLBTs. Straight against 8, thanks for not getting married. Please don't pro-create either."

I find that line very ironic. You are now discriminating against a straight brother of ours who supports equality.

This is a blog about activism and equality, if you don't like it and you don't like gays, why do you keep coming back?

Do you honestly think you are going to change our minds? Why the hell would we just change our minds and stop supporting our 1,400 state/federal rights. We would have to be nuts and self loathing.

Get a grip, if you don't like gay marriage, don't marry one.

Straight against 8 said...

To Anonymous,
I read that piece too, and I disagreed with it. Children are born out of wedlock daily. Married couples are unable to conceive daily. Children of married couples succumb to drugs, violence and unsafe sex daily as well. Divoce severely damages a child's perspective of family. And unless you are willing to concede to requiring a permit to procreate, then your argument has no back bone.
And when I do have children, whether I'm married or not, I will teach them not to be the kind of coward you appear to be.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of the people who voted for 8 don't hate anyone. Reactionary responses claiming this end are fallacious & presumptuous(and are not based on fact). Are 52.5% of the people in California (and an estimated 68% of the pople nationwide bigots)??? We simply feel differently about the definition of marriage and are entitled to express this, financially support, and vote accordingly. I recognize that this is very personal for many people, but refuse to apologize for standing up for what I believe to be better for my children and society. Argue all you want with my rationale, but don't naturally assume that I'm intollerant because of it.

Anonymous said...

Boundbydesign; No one doubts that you have strong same-sex attraction. You want to act on it, go for it. You’ve never been kicked out of a restaurant for being gay; rather, you were likely kicked out for being disruptive. If you don’t resemble your gender then you ought to feel humiliated. Going to the bathroom is a private matter and I’ve lined up at a urinal before and had a lesbian line up next to me; that’s wrong no matter how you slice it. Why do you crave validation about whether your love is "real" – I don’t even know how one love get’s shrugged off. You want to share in a medical plan or insurance policy with your partner, get a domestic partnership. I have spent a lot of days since Prop 8 holding a sign and having profanities yelled at me. As an LDS missionary I had stuff thrown at me just because I walked down the street with my companion – and we were not even holding hands. Here’s a tip: respect others enough to look like a women before you go into the women’s bathroom. It’s common courtesy. You pay personal taxes, business taxes, and are afforded the same rights and treatment under the law under the Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a) states that: “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses.” A sexually-based lifestyle cannot credibly cloak itself in the mantel of the racial justice movement of the last century or the suffrage movement of the early 1900’s. BTW: the old adage is: "Together we stand, divided we fall.” I am happy to leave Domestic Partnership to y’all; please leave marriage as it has been for thousands of years.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I not only like gays, I love them. That is why I keep coming back. I am hopeful that if y’all read the Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a) enough times you’ll realize that no one has taken any rights away from same-sex couples. And while not all marriages are ideal and some parents do a terrible job is not an argument for eroding children’s rights. The 1989 U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child guarantees children the right to have their biological parents accountable to them and to each other. No one seriously challenges the proposition that the family structure that helps children the most is one headed by two biological parents in a loving marriage. Every child being raised by someone other than his or her biological parents is denied a birthright. While not every child’s right to biological parenting is realized (as in the case of death or divorce), that basic civil right should not be fundamentally eroded by radically altering the meaning of marriage to accommodate an “alterative” life-style based agenda. If any of my kids were gay, I would love them as I always have loved them – with all of my heart, might, mind and strength. I wouldn’t try to re-define marriage though. These are not contrary positions.
I hope you will change our minds and have enough self-respect to embrace the Domestic Partnerships y’all lobbied for so hard and stop trying to redefine the thousands of years old institution of marriage.

Andrew said...

Proposition 8 was a crushing blow to me and my dog, Tim. If it had failed, it would be one step closer to me being able to marry my dog. We have been in a relationship for 2 years now and I've never loved anyone more. It's wrong that I can't marry who I love and he can't marry who he loves. It's just not fair.

Straight against 8 said...

Anonymous,
You assume that all married couples want to have children. Marriage and procreation are not mutually exclusive, and tethering them together udnermines the significance of each individual act. If birthright is what you're so big on, are you against adoption? Those children undoubtedly were denied their true parents, but can undoubtedly find love and security in an alternative lifestyle home.

boundbydesign said...

Anon - What exactly does a woman look like? Let me guess, you guys wrote the book on that as well? Your judgements only serve to make us stronger..I do owe you thanks, your treatment and judgement has served to ignite our community, and those that care about us, which I assure you...you have no idea the size of it yet...You are a bigot and a coward, you don't own marriage and never will. Get a grip on reality, we are here, we will not go away. Spout your Domestic Partnership crap, it is all a version of "separte but (virtually) equal" which was not bought by the African Americans and will not be bought by us...

boundbydesign said...

Andrew, you are in idiot...that arguement is so lame and warped? Are you now comparing a living, responsible, of consenting age human being with a dog, that shows your mental capacity if you can make that arguement without finding many flaws with your logic.

Andrew said...

You tell it, boundbydesign! The sooner we stop the ban on gay marriage, the sooner my dog and I can get married and maybe one day adopt a child. We want nothing more than to love a child of our own. Keep up the fight!

Boundbydesign said...

The moment your dog can sign a legal document you may have an arguement that can make sense...you are an idiot, and your comments show your maturity. Grow up.

Andrew said...

What the freak!? YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!! How DARE you question my relationship with Tim?? How DARE you get on your high horse and judge us!? You are a disgrace to the movement. EQUALITY FOR ALL!!

Andrew said...

I am soooo upset right now. How dare that jerk off judge me. Isn't that what he/she has been whining about? HYPOCRITE!

Boundbydesign said...

The moment you suggest that my relationship with another HUMAN BEING, is the same as having a relationship with a dog, is the moment you disgrace me. I love my dog, and people should love thier animals, but if you truly believe that that is the same thing as we are fighting for, I suggest you find a good therapist. I am not going to even go into all the things that are different and am saddened that people have actually brought that up as a defense.

Andrew said...

Since when did they make you the relationship police and judge?? You are a hypocrite plain and simple! You preach equality and tolerance and diversity yet you sit on your high horse condemning me for being in love with Tim. Get over yourself, BIOTCH!

Anonymous said...

boundbydesign: You are no doubt trying to be provocative by asking me what a woman looks like just as you are trying to be provocative when you try as hard as you can to look as much like a man as you can and then dare others to "perceive" you as being in the wrong bathroom. That kind of conduct is rude and obnoxious, so stop it already. If I am a bigot and a coward, why am I in this Lion's Den? And if you are not a bigot and a coward, why are you and others in the GLBT / Queers United singling out and castigating Mormons who are only 2% of the population. If y'all are so brave, head on down to Compton where 7/10 African Americans -- who own the civil rights legacy -- voted for Prop 8 and call them bigots and haters? I tell you why: you are bigots and cowards. Instead of being brave, y'all march on a Mormon Temple where you know folks will turn the other cheek. No, I don't own marriage and neither do you. Marriage "is." Marriage is historically defined as between man and woman. When African Americans obtained equal rights we did not start calling them white. When woman earned obtained equal rights we did not start calling them men. We are not going to start calling Domestic Partnerships marriages either. You need to get a grip on that reality. I'll stop "spout[ing]" my "Domestic Partnership crap" [for which the GLBT crowd lobbied] when y'all admit that it provides the exact same rights under CA law as marriage and y'all just like that word better and want it to make you feel better about yourself. That is what it comes down to, really. Then we can talk about not redefining a centuries old institution just to make folks with strong same-sex attraction feel validated.

Anonymous said...

I do not assume that all married couples want to have children. I agree that marriage and procreation are, unfortunately, not mutually exclusive -- to the great detriment of many, many children. However, tethering them together does not undermines the significance of each individual act; rather, it is the best way to institutionally ensure that the rights of children under the 1989 U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child to have their biological parents accountable to them and to each other. I am not against adoption even though those children undoubtedly are denied their true birthright. Look to adoption laws to define those relationships.

Boundbydesign said...

I don't need your validation, plain and simple, we change centuries old traditions every day, every year, so marriage will change. Unless there is something fundamental that states that a union between a man and a women is so much different than a union between a woman and another woman, then we should have the same rights, and you are right, we didn't starting calling women men, or blacks white, we called them same or equal...that is all we want, is same...love is love, and procreation, religion, fear, insecurities play no part in love. I grew up believing in the word marriage that meant the ultimate committment to the person I love, a union that I was willing to make for the rest of my life, that is what the word marriage means to me...I don't give a F*ck what your definition of it is, your definition and those of many others is based out of religious beliefs and has NO PLACE in politics. Also, your comment:
"You are no doubt trying to be provocative by asking me what a woman looks like just as you are trying to be provocative when you try as hard as you can to look as much like a man as you can and then dare others to "perceive" you as being in the wrong bathroom. That kind of conduct is rude and obnoxious, so stop it already. "

is ludacris, why would I try and look like a man when it is women who like women who I am attracted to? Another way of saying how much "I have penis envy" Get over yourself...You don't know me and have never seen me...but just another way you show your ignorance. I don't get treated that way because I actually "look" like a man, there are differences in the way people act which I have actually done research on...it is thier way of showing disdain, not simply being confused, but take it as you wish. Go on pretending that this world is the perfect vision of whatever God you believe in, my God teaches me not to judge, not to hate, not to ridicule others, to make the world a better place not by telling others how to live better lives, but to do so by setting an example and living my life to the best of my ability. I don't care how you live your life...truly, and while you say that you don't either, you do so by telling me what I should be happy for and settle on. Sorry, not going to happen.

Boundbydesign said...

If the country truly believed that marriage should be "A union between a man and a woman" why didn't they write it that way to begin with? This country and its rights were not founded differences between sexes, color, religion, etc, it was stated as the countries founders meant it to be...YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE IT NOW! Or did we not remember that this is about changing the centuries old tradition we call the CONSTITUTION? Don't change what wasn't broken...

Straight against 8 said...

Anonymous you are setting up arbitrary standards for personal choices and trying to make them law. You say a man and woman alone should marry and have children - that leaves the gates wide open for drug addicts, alcoholics and abusers to raise children in a nightmare of a life. Why don't we challenge the rights of convicted domestic or child abusers to marry or procreate? I'm sure you agree they are a truly significant and frightening threat to children, much more than a couple of men who have been waiting all their lives to finally be recognized as a legitimate family.

My gay friend is raising her nephew right now because her aunt split town with her new boyfriend. My gay friend is giving that child excellent care, and his straight mother is no where in sight. How can you say that the aunt is qualified to marry and have another child, but my friend is not? And how do you believe this is your choice anyway? You are free to believe whatever you want about gay marriage, but you are not free to impose your beliefs on gays who want to marry. When you asked/ were asked to get married, did you have to check it over with anyone? Wasn't it your decision to make about your own life? Why do you get that right and my friend doesn't?

Clare said...

Mormons make up less than 2% of the population of California. There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.

Mormon voters were less than 5% of the yes vote. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6% of the Yes vote and 2.4% of the total Proposition 8 vote.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.

The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.

Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.

African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.

The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).

The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims – all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.

Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.

The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do – we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.

Anonymous said...

Boundbydesign: You are the one who described your situation as being perceived as being in the wrong bathroom b/c of the way you look. Don't put that off on me. And there is something fundamental about why a union between a man and a women is so much different than a union between a woman and a woman. In the sexual union between a man and a women, procreation is, in principle, always possible; in the sexual union between a woman and a woman, procreation is, in principle, is never possible. That is what makes marriage unique: it is the institution which, in principle, ensures the rights of children have their biological parents accountable to them and to each other. That is why marriage is limited to between a man and a woman. Have I mentioned already that you have the same rights already under the DPA?
And who is your God? I will presume from your comments He is Jesus Christ, who showed us how to live and to love others without condoning their conduct. He said to the woman taken in adultery "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” He did not say "keep committing adultery." The scriptures show us how to judge: "For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for everything which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him." Christ also sent his out Apostles teach the world how to live better lives. You don't want to hear that part, I reckon. I love you as a sister in Christ, I don't have to condone, embrace, or endorse your strong same-sex attraction to follow Christ.

boundbydesign said...

Anon- Believe it or not, people can have a belief in a higher power that is not nicely labeled into a religion with all of the confines bestowed upon them. My God or creator simply teaches to love all of natures creations, to respect each and every living creature the way that he/she did when he/she created them. I don't need a bible or book to tell me how to live my life, I simply try to do the right things, treat people fairly, obide by the laws of my country, educate myself on important matters, and do everything I can to daily make myself a better person, whichout judgement for those who don't live thier lives like I do.

Leslie said...

While I still don't know how I would have voted were I a Californian, I can assure you that the LDS church does not hate homosexuals. You may not agree with their stance on homosexuality, but they didn't vote for it out of hate.

Anonymous said...

Boundbydesign: Have you ever read the Constitution? Obviously not. The Constitution enumerated very few rights. The Bill of Rights were amendments to the , Constitution dearie. I am sure it never occurred to our founding fathers that shame would flee this country to such an extent that God would be chased out of the public square and GLBTs (if they even conceived of the T's) marched into it to get married. They didn't write that in for the same reason they didn't write in the phrase "we breathe air." Did you take U.S. History? Under our original Constitutional government, woman couldn't vote until the 19th Amendment, and neither could African Americans until the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment; indeed, African Americans were counted as 3/5 of a man (Art. I, Section 3, Clause 2). Are you suggesting we go back to that? Are you serious about straights trying to change marriage? The only reason Prop 22 codified marriage is b/c GLBTs tried to redefine traditional marriage. It wasn't until May 2008 that 4 judges invented a right to gay "marriage." The people fixed that SNAFU on Tuesday. I agree with you, don't change what wasn't broken by redefining the centuries' old definition of marriage.

Anonymous said...

I am tired of everyone asserting that FAMILY.CODE SECTION 297-297.5 (the domestic partnership legislation) gives same-sex couples equal protection under the law as married couples. While the legislation strives to close the gap of disenfranchisement, the language still discriminates and does not afford same-sex couples privileges given to married couples. Under 297.5, domestic partners are legally termed, 'spouses', which has a legal definition that is different than 'married'. These terms affect rights and responsibilities, especially at the federal level.

In 2004, the United States General Accounting Office identified a
total of 1,138 federal statutory provisions classified to the United States Code in which marital status is a factor in determining or receiving federal benefits, rights, and privileges(http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf). Same-sex marriage is currently legal only in the state of Massachusetts. Despite the fact that same-sex couples are able to marry in Massachusetts, legal protections do not extend to a majority of states. You could imagine many scenario where these rights could seriously affect the lives of individuals and family units, especially in the event of hospitalization or where children are involved.

I am not going to belabor the point further, but the fact is that in a country touted as giving liberty and justice to all, a minority population is being oppressed.

Kai Cross said...

Amazing, all these supposedly "straight" people on our gay blog.

Shame on you for taking away our rights. Your arguments mean nothing.

The church IS a cult, whether you like it or not. May God forgive you for the evil you have done.

Clare said...

I was actually looking for more information on the protests going on in the city and this blog came up. Blame google for this site popping up, Kai. *rolls eyes* When I saw how hateful some of these people that posted on here are towards the LDS church, I thought I'd post some FACTS about who all really voted for Prop 8. I dare you to take your protest to black churches in LA. No, I double dare you.

Anonymous said...

And may God forgive you, "Kai", the evil YOU have done.

Robert O'Brien said...

"Yes, Mormons practiced polygamy once upon a time, but it was both God and U.S. law that required it be terminated."

It's funny how the Mormon god only changed his mind due to US legislation. In any event, as long as the homosexual protesters remain nonviolent, the Mormons are no more justified in their bellyaching than the homosexuals.

Clare said...

Well, from my experience rallying for Prop 8, we experienced severe hatred from homosexuals and their friends. When we staged our rally's at busy intersections, NO ONE touched their signs that were taped to poles and trees. But our signs were CONSTANTLY vandalized and stolen. I am proud of how we fought for Prop 8. We did it respectfully and maturely. I wish I could say the same for the opposing side.

Robert O'Brien said...

"Fiction: Four Activist Judges in San Francisco…
Fact: Prop 8 is about eliminating a fundamental right. Judges didn’t grant the right, the constitution guarantees the right."

That "right" must be written in invisible ink to the left of the emanation of the penumbra, cuz' I can't see it.

Robert O'Brien said...

I've heard from my Mormon friends that they were treated rudely, and I believe it.

I've also read about signs being vandalized and even of an elderly gentleman in Carlsbad being assaulted by his whackaloon "No on 8" neighbor.

Anonymous said...

You are really tired of the truth and want to repeat a debunked lie. Lie: Prop 8 takes away rights. Truth: CA’s Domestic Partnership Act at Family Code Section 297.5(a) states that: “Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits ... as are granted to ... spouses.” Even had Prop 8 failed, that would not have changed federal law. In 1996, Congress adopted the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). Pub. L. 104-199, 100 Stat. 2419 (Sept. 21, 1996), which states "In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word 'marriage' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word 'spouse' refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife."
As to the oppressed minority, are you referring to the GLBTs interference with the religious rights of less than 2% of the CA population by, inter alia, marching on their temple?

Anonymous said...

Robert O'Brien: If you bothered to read the decision of the 4 activist judges and knew anything about constitutional law, you would know that the CA constitution never required same-sex marriage. That was social-engineering of the worst judicial sort.

Clare said...

I rallied, called voters, and went to homes of voters for weeks. Not once did I see any Yes on 8'ers behave in an inappropriate manner. I only saw the opposing side acting like animals. I had to call the police two times on individuals who acted violently and aggressively. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it in a heartbeat. I WILL defend my children's right to an education without the homosexual agenda being shoved down their throats. IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING! It's NO LIE.

Like I said, I dare you and your people to protest at black churches. I'll be waiting to hear word that you have done so...if you come back in one piece. LOL

Robert O'Brien said...

"Robert O'Brien: If you bothered to read the decision of the 4 activist judges and knew anything about constitutional law, you would know that the CA constitution never required same-sex marriage. That was social-engineering of the worst judicial sort."

What comment were you reading?. I supported Prop 8 for that very reason. One can be opposed to the judicial fraud that gave us SSM as well as the fraud of Joe Smith that gave us Mormonism.

Anonymous said...

If I misunderstood your comment I apologize. I thought you were endorsing the claim: "Fiction: Four Activist Judges in San Francisco… Fact: Prop 8 is about eliminating a fundamental right. Judges didn’t grant the right, the constitution guarantees the right."
And what Joe Smith has to do with this debate is a mystery to me.
'

Robert O'Brien said...

I quoted that claim only to respond to it.

Anonymous said...

This is ridiculous
It is not even the Mormon church that had donated the $$ to prop 8
It was members of the church.
I don't know what you idiots are thinking, but you're definitely not making a very good impression upon yourselves by rioting in the streets
You seriously just seem like a bunch of gays trying to get everything YOUR way
Which isn't going to happen, sorry. You can't have everything your way guys..
Come on... Let's be adults and accept the fact that you lost prop 8
California doesn't want same-sex marriage
If you NEED the name "marriage," then go somewhere else
There's plenty of other places, countries, states, etc that will give it to you
Why are you trying to fight it in California
Just get the heck out, since you're not going to get it here.
..Since you're not going to get what you want here, just LEAVE

Anonymous said...

Okay, if you take some time and read this with a right mind and not one of anger.. you'll see where my church stands on same-gender attraction and what the leaders of our church our teaching us. This is information that is out there for anyone to read. Maybe after reading it, you can understand why most of us still have compassion for gays and lesbians. We don't hate you.. we hate the sin. Please take time to read. And if you are prayerful, please do so before reading it.. invite the spirit of truth to come in and you'll see what we see.

Thanks for listening.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=43786e9ce9b1c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

PS: If you have trouble following the link (not sure how it'll post), copy the whole link into Notepad, take off WORD WRAP and then select it from there (copy/paste) into Address area on your browser.

Anonymous said...

MORMONS: Take off your hocus pocus golden glasses and stop looking for your stupid plates. you are a cult and have a scandalous history. Stop trying o take the moral high ground on marriage when you are only about a century from demeaning women through polygamy. You can believe what you want but when you use your CULT to impose your views on civil rights the you lose your TAX EXEMPT STATUS. This is not going to go away. You should have minded your own business and stuck to imposing your cult's rules to your own state of Utah. You will pay for this.

Anonymous said...

Have any of you considered just assimilating into a community instead of forcing it on to a community?

It seems to have worked for most groups that are part of the USA...some have taken longer than others but it works.

The whole demonstrating in the streets with hateful signs just remind me of the Hispanics last year with "Si se puede" "We can do it" and their Mexican flags. That didn't go over very well. Not a lot of sympathy for them after that demonstration.

Consider quieting down and behaving properly without inflamatory & insulting words. Consider behaving like you belong to the community. Consider behaving differently than was shown on tv today. Consider getting rid of your "gayness" parades. Consider acting like you belong.

As for the mormon thing, they are use to criticism, so your words fall on deaf ears.

Anonymous said...

Is another rally planned? I'm so bummed I missed this one ;(

Queers United said...

Anonymous there are many check out http://queersunited.blogspot.com/2008/11/listing-of-prop-8-protests-and-rallies.html

Straight against 8 said...

So any news of LA protests on Saturday?

Queers United said...

Straight against 8 -This is what I have so far for Saturday.


No On Prop 8 Protest - San Diego/Hillcrest, 12noon
1st & University, San Diego (map)
Marching to 30th in North Park.

Huntington Beach
No On Prop 8 Protest Rally - Huntington Beach, 2pm
Huntington Beach Pier, Huntington Beach

Woodland Hills
No On Prop 8 Rally In the Valley, Saturday 11/8 4:00pm Corner of Oxnard and De Soto Ave, Woodland Hills CA 91367

Laguna Beach
No On Prop 8 Protest March & Vigil - Laguna Beach, Saturday 11/8 5:30pm
City Hall 505 Forest Avenue, Laguna Beach

No More Hate, Fight Prop 8 Rally/Protest
6:00 PM Gather at Sunset Junction in Silver Lake
Corner of Sunset Blvd. and Santa Monica Blvd, Los Angeles 90029
For more info call 213-251-1025 or email answerla@answerla.org
Click here for fliers, directions and info.

Proposition 8 Protest/ Candlelight Vigil
7:00PM Laguna Beach City Hall
Parking available at Act V parking lot at 1900 Laguna Canyon Road - shuttle busses will be running every 15 minutes. Bring signs, flags, candles (or flashlights), whistles, and dress for a cool evening.

Queers United said...

The one in Los Angeles is supposed to be huge, the one in Silver Lake. I heard possibly thousands.

Non practicing Mormon said...

I live right next to the Temple. I'm a Mormon, but NO longer practicing Mormonism. I still respect the Mormons, and have no issue with them. I voted NO on Prop 8. I felt horrible that it passed! I was hoping that your protest would reach out to the hearts of those that voted YES, but I saw your demonstration last night, and it was UGLY! I heard a women scream "STOP THE HATE!" with more HATE coming from her mouth! I think you would reach more people through a silent protest, like Martin Luther King. Your protest shouldn't be about disrespecting others, or blocking traffic... i think that hurt your cause! You say it's about civil rights, then keep it about that. Don't have signs saying "MORMONS GO TO HELL!" Is that suppose to win them over, isn't that what you are trying to do? Help them to understand, and to respect you!

You wasted your time last night! So get it together for your next protest, and try to bring compassion, and love, and reach their hearts!!
Good luck :)

Marissa said...

Do y'all want to see how nasty these people got towards the mormons? Check it out. You are making yourselves look soooo bad right now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxagcNFyHyc

Anonymous said...

The LDS chuch does not hate you or anyone. It is you who hate them. The money that went to prop 8 never went through the LDS church's hands. By calling them "Mormons" you guys are being hateful because that is the name they got from the people who persecute them.

Marissa said...

Check this video out. But they don't hate! Only Mormons hate, right??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bqvqbcULoM

Anonymous said...

I speak to all people who are acting so hatefully because of proposition 8 being passed. I am writing to defend why I supported and still support Prop 8. First let’s get this right that this proposition is not a matter of someone’s ‘rights.’ It is a matter of what IS right. Homosexual people have all the rights that we do, but that does not mean they will be allowed to completely redefine marriage just because that is their view and their desire. Suppose that a 16yr old girl wanted to marry her 30 year old boyfriend. They are madly in ‘love.’ They are each other’s soul mates. Why shouldn’t they have the right to marry when they are in love? What if a colleague wanted to marry both men that she is in love with? Isn’t it her human ‘right’ to marry them both if she so desires? Again, these are not matters of a person’s ‘rights,’ but what is right and what is not.

Now, I am Catholic, and yet I also feel to defend Mormons. I stood with many to support Prop 8, and some of them are my very good friends. And just like I am not what you have tried to paint them as, neither are they. We are NOT prejudice, evil, mean, or belligerent just because we are standing up for what we believe in, just like homosexuals are. But Mormons are not the only ones who fought to get Prop 8 passed, and yet they are unfairly being targeted. Not that I want our churches to be the target for hate crimes, but why do the Mormons get all the credit when they are not the only ones who fought for this to pass? What has caused this hatred to be targeted against them just because they are defending what they believe in, just like you guys are defending what you believe in? Me and the Mormons have just as much right as you do to defend what we believe. What do you think we (all the supporters of Prop 8) and the Mormons would do if the roles were reversed and Prop 8 was not passed? Do you think we would have all sorts of riots, that we would go out and target all of you and do hate crimes against you? Do you think we would so unfairly target a group of people just because you have different views than us and yet you were the majority? Do you think we would slander your names, spread all sorts of lies, and call for you to be targeted for all sorts of crimes? It is absolutely absurd and completely wrong, and YOU should be the ones who are shamed for what you are doing. When people look at what is going on in the news, who do you think they will see as the wrong-doers the people who are being so prejudicial? Who do you think they will see as being so ignorant and hypocritical? You people call for love and tolerance of your beliefs and for your own ‘rights’ to be protected, and yet look at how you are so wrongfully targeting a group of people because of their beliefs and because of how they used their rights of democracy to defend their beliefs. It is sickening and the most hypocritical I have ever seen anyone be. Again, YOU should be ashamed of how intolerant and how hypocritical you are acting.

Anonymous said...

1- LDS Temples are not some sort of church headquarter building, they do not "teach" anything inside of them, they perform ordinances like family sealings and marriages. Thats it.

2- The temple is not open for ordinances on Sundays, only the visitor center.

3- The Temple is not a church building, they do not hold church services inside them- no sacrament, no sunday school, no teaching.

4- The LDS Church used absoultely no money on prop 8. Any funds that supported this cause were made by individuals or businesses (not owned by the church itself).

5- Yes, members were encouraged to exercise their political rights and campaign and vote, as they always are in every election. The same rights entitled to everyone in the US, and that everyone posting on here was free to exercise on November 4th.

6- If you have a problem with the amendment, why are you not bringing it up with the proper people? Ie, gov't? They are the ones who allowed this measure to be put on the ballot. They are the ones who need to be spoken to if you really want change (unless you just want to vent your anger and hate, then by all means, go boycott at the Temple, it won't change anything about prop 8)

7- I really really really don't understand how you people think this is a reasonable reaction. This is how democracy works, you follow certain rules to get a measure on the ballet, and you campaign, and majority rules. Unfortunately there will always be half the people left unhappy because they didn't get the vote they wanted. That doesn't mean you get to overturn it. Its exactly the same as all these other people who are trying to Obama out of office because they don't "like it". This is how democracy works. If you want to make a change, you have to do it through the proper channels. Prop 8 did this. If you dont agree, bring it up with the CA gov't.

Anonymous said...

The LDS church website lists 749,490 members in California. The LA Times lists 10,357,002 total votes on Prop 8 with 5,424,916 votes in favor of Prop 8. Why is it the mormon (LDS) church is being targeted when they represent a mere 7.24% of the total prop 8 vote, and 13.82% of the YES vote on Prop 8?

California does not record religious affiliation when tracking donations, therefore, there is no way and dollar amount can be accurately attributed to any one church organization.

Queers United said...

There may be 749,490 Mormons in Cali. Why was more than half the money coming in from Utah? Spend your money in Utah. The Mormon Church should have thought twice before hurting gays and lesbians, now we have the right to protest and boycot all we want. It's democracy, right?

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